I’m about as atheist as they come, but it seems pretty settled history that the man existed and was politically impactful
He was most likely a real guy. But a guy Christian’s would absolutely hate: a brown Communist Palestinian who hung out with prostitutes, lepers, pariahs, refuted the legitimacy of the state, and organized massive mutual aid events to feed the poor. Probably a good dude. It’s a shame his followers are dicks though.
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The bible Jesus probably never existed, but there were clearly a guy a lot of people followed called Jesus that the romains crucified.
Real talk, he hasn’t been proven to exist. Not even a little.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
And as you read through you will notice a heavy bias towards the assumption he did exist…but again, without proof. It’s kind of silly the lie he was real is so prevalent.
Each attempt to prove his existence relied on very loose reasoning. The closest they have ever come breaks down to one actual historical figure who wasn’t a Christian mentioning some thieves who believed in Jesus numerous decades after Jesus supposedly died - which for a long time was proof enough…somehow.
At this point scholars have admitted they will never have actual proof that he existed - that proof is “ultimately unattainable”. And much like you noted with “political impact” they have moved the goal posts to the impact on society the concept of Jesus had as their proof. So… yeah, definitely not proven.
James Cameron did a national geographic documentary proving the guy existed. They found his ostuary. Which fits the time period. It was some astronomically absurd chance that it wasn’t him. Since everyone in the tomb had the family names of all of his relatives. Something like it was a 1 in 10 million chance that it wasn’t the nuclear family’s buried remains.
That is hilariously untrue, have you any idea how big that news would be? They don’t even know if Arimathea was a real place, we certainly don’t know about Jesus family - none of them are mentioned outside the limited references in the Bible
The Lost Tomb of Jesus https://g.co/kgs/A1gqTdn
The very first sentence in Wikipedia describes it as pseudoarchaeological docudrama. Got to love it.
Why does your sky zombie hate you so much he gives you such bad evidence?
I don’t believe in the Bible lol
But the historical figure existed. It’s not an amalgamation of fantasy. He was likely nothing like his imagery in pop culture.
Ok so if you don’t believe in the Bible what is your source of information that he existed?
What did you expect? We’re talking about one guy who might have lived over 2000 years ago. You’re not going to find his birth certificate and social security number.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence. And reading the article you yourself linked to, that probability seems to be pretty high.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence
For a person that is considered an actual god, we should expect more than “probable” existence. I think pointing out the lack of evidence for a supposed god is perfectly acceptable.
You’re missing the point or you’re being deliberately obtuse. Either way, nobody’s trying to prove that Jesus Christ existed in this thread (at least, nobody that is arguing in good faith - no pun intended). We’re talking about the real guy that MOST LIKELY really existed but, putting aside his supposed divine heritage, would have been basically a regular guy back then.
A regular guy who created three different movements in under 3 years, convinced multiple people to abandon their families and income for life with no power beyond words, who managed to somehow someway have the entire legal system in place not work properly, and was able to convince Pilot to not do the sensible thing which would be wipe out his followers.
Could you pull this off? With no money and influence could you go to say Mississippi, convince 12 men to abandon their wives/children/income, lead them on a suicide run, somehow manipulate the justice system to not give you a regular trial, yet shield all of your followers for decades after your death, and inspire two separate movements after you are dead…in under 3 years.
If a regular guy has this level of charisma I would be pretty impressed.
This happens regularly… They are called cults today… Their members also believe their Messiah is a messenger from (or literally is) god… And they get much more than 12.
In six months?
I’m an anti-theist, and I used to be on this page, but a while ago I read about how even this might not be true. We don’t have any real proof he existed at all.
Where’d you read that? Here are at least the known sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus
There’s way less evidence of a ton of historical figures and events that are taken for granted as established history. Just my two cents
Right. It’s applying the same standard of evidence that we use for everything else on history. Truth is, we don’t have great evidence for pretty much anyone who wasn’t a regional ruler. If you rose the standard much higher, you’d end up with history being a big blank, and that’s not useful.
In other words, if you reject a historical Jesus outright, you also have to reject Socrates and Spartacus and a whole lot of others.
Socrates: we have the testimony of his student speaking to other people who also knew him. For Jesus we do not have that. Also the claim is small. A philosopher living in the golden age of philosophy in the center of it. It is like me saying I know a software developer who lived in San Jose in 1999 to a group of people who also knew him in 1999.
Clippy was the greatest software developer that ever lived
and events that are taken for granted as established history. Just my two cents
Very well. Please list one that is as big as a claim. Remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
The other person who responded before you listed Socrates and Spartacus, who both have fewer sources for their existence. Another is Hannibal Barcus and the Punic Wars, our knowledge of which is almost entirely based on the account of Polybius. There are a ton of others, you’re welcome to read history. There is nothing extraordinary about whether or not Jesus Christ existed vs any of these other people, at no point are we discussing anything metaphysical here
None of those three are as big as a claim.
There is nothing extraordinary about whether or not Jesus Christ existed
Bull. Even people decades later who opposed Christianity noticed it. Wondering why anyone would follow a dead leader. A regular guy could not have inspired multiple generations of followers when he hadn’t setup any institutions and only preached for about 6 months. If however James made it up and he lived until he was an old man that would explain it.
Ok
The consensus among historical scholars is that some itinerant preacher who we can reasonably call the historical Jesus existed. That is the state of the field. There was lots of religious fervor at the time, it was already probably clear to everyone that something bad was going to happen to the Temple, there were lots of similar guys running around.
Arguing that the man probably existed is not arguing that he advocated for the things he was saying in the Bible, that he was in any way divine, or that one should believe in Christianity. It’s not arguing for leftist hippie Jesus either. Just that at this point in history, some sort of Jewish rabble rouser claimed to be a messiah and started a small group of followers. This is not a crazy claim - rabble rousers exist, Jewish people exist and have a complex religious/political figure called a messiah, and the group of followers was causing problems in less than a hundred years.
Remember that historical argumentation and proof looks fundamentally different than argumentation and proof in physics or math. You can’t do “Josephus minus The Testimonium Flavianum plus Pliny’s letters equals Christ.” No one is going to be able to trot out a photo of Jesus. Although here’s something fun: here’s one of the first depictions of Jesus.
The consensus is also that Mark at least somewhat more accurately represents the historical figure than the other gospels, which are all either fairly culturally Greek or Greek to the core (John).
What part of Mark? Give me the passage that references something that Jesus said or did that you are confident that he did say or do that thing.
I ask because I have no idea. Every time I try to do this I find out it happened in the OT or in Greek literature or in the letters or it served a selfish purpose for Paul.
I remember reading about this.
IRC before Emperor Constantine there was still a bit of a religious taboo of portraying Jesus (a god), due to the whole bible being against idolatry thing. So it was mostly metaphorical images of a buff shephard, if there were pictures at all, because Jesus was a shephard to his followers, and buff because why wouldn’t you make him buff?
After Constantine converted, Christianity was romanised. The Romans loved idolatary so that taboo went out the window ASAP. The image of Jesus was partly inspired by images of Apollo and Dionysus (hence white, fit and feminine) then later Zeus (hence the authoritative beard). It’s not actually inspired by actual Jesus, whose appearance was (perhaps deliberately) not described properly in the New Testament. The Church basically adapted its product to the tastes of the Roman market, just like the whole Christmas tree and Saturnalia gift giving becoming Christian traditions.
Apparently there’s a similar thing in Islam, where a lot of the stuff that’s supposedly a core Islamic value, is just Arabic culture that predates Islam. Something that annoys non-Arabic Muslims. From what I can tell, Muslims are even more likely to pretend their religion came fully formed and never changed/adapted in its long history. Understandably, I tend to avoid discussing this with devout Muslims. LOL
Obviously, religious extremists can’t admit that their religion changes and adapts, or they’d have to admit that that one value they think is really important might be changed too or that their religious texts aren’t the inerrant word of their god. Which is probably one of the reasons why different religious sects love to fight each other over stupid shit, rather than admit that they’re both the same religion, but just a bit different based on local tradition and history because their religious texts were written by humans not gods.
Or at least, that’s my theory.
I like how everyone in the comments is being all serious over a meme.
Jesus was a cave man from the upper paleolithic era who survived and studied under the Buddha, then went west to try and spread those teachings, and was unintentionally ascribed godhood by his followers.
If you got that reference, I’ll buy you a drink of your choice should we ever meet.
Anything that says IPA on it I tend to like but really my favorite beer is free, so just whatever you want to get me. It is the Man from Earth. Not really a great movie. When he said John T. Party from Boston a little part of me died.
You know what one really annoying thing, amongst many, with that movie is? There are connections between the Buddha and the Gospel Jesus. However, with the sole exception of the Golden Rule, all the details are biographical. Which hints really strongly that it is just a typical way the human mind likes a story since presumably if there was a connection between the Gospel writers and Buddhism they would have his teachings instead of his biography.
Nah that movie was great for what it was. Literally one set and some of the acting was really bad but the writing makes up for all of it. Anybody who appreciates dialogue in Cinema should check it out if you haven’t already.
I don’t understand your point trying to disprove connections between Buddha and Jesus. Jesus’ part of the Bible does have his teachings. If Jesus and the Bible were real, the “biography” is basically a supercut of all the times he learned a lesson, taught lessons to others or performed miracles (sometimes the last two are the same). So I don’t understand how you’re saying his “biography” doesn’t have his teachings. But even without my explanation, I don’t see a 1+1 equation from what you said.
Nah that movie was great for what it was. Literally one set and some of the acting was really bad but the writing makes up for all of it. Anybody who appreciates dialogue in Cinema should check it out if you haven’t already.
Ok you know what? I am going to walk that back. If you enjoyed it I am happy for you. I didn’t. And that is okay.
I don’t understand your point trying to disprove connections between Buddha and Jesus. Jesus’ part of the Bible does have his teachings.
Hmm perhaps you can provide a few?
But even without my explanation, I don’t see a 1+1 equation from what you said.
A man was in heaven and came to earth to help humanity. Before his birth a magical man tells the parents that he will be great. He leaves home a bit before age 30, wanders in the wilderness for about 2.5 years. Encounters a being with red skin and horns on his head who tempts him three times. The man outwits this avatar of temptation. The man comes to a place where people have gathered and he gives a short speech which becomes one of the most significant speeches of all time laying out his entire philosophy. Of those that listened some became his first followers.
He travels around with 12 followers. He fights with the religious and political figures of his day. Befriends criminals and the outcasts of society. Has a difficult experience at the temple one day and is betrayed by one of his men. He spends his last day telling people to forgive the one who killed him and speaking to his youngest follower about taking over. The man dies and three days later the body is moved.
I am of course telling you the story of the Buddha recorded in the 6th century BCE.
Now there are parallels which I am sure you see. The thing is I don’t see teaching parallels. So if the Gospel writers were familiar with the story of the Buddha I find it weird that they were familiar with any of the teachings of the man. Nothing Jesus taught was groundbreaking, it was all available in earlier Jewish works. It would be pretty impressive if Jesus had started for example talking about the Wheel of Becoming or the eightfold path.
Okay thanks for explaining it further. I misunderstood what you said and therefore you misunderstood something I said. I’m definitely dumb and you are probably right about their teachings not being similar. I would say the golden rule is enough for me but I can definitely see why it would feel dumb for someone more educated in the subject. That happens a lot in movies and even more in TV
You aren’t dumb. We disagreed that is not the same thing at all. Best of luck to you
Well I didn’t understand you were saying Jesus didn’t teach Buddha’s teachings. I thought you were saying the Bible didn’t have Jesus’ own teachings. Use of the word “him” in various places is where my confusion came from. That’s what qualifies me as stupid. The only thing we disagree on if whether Man from Earth is good.
Palestinians can be quite pale skinned though. Maybe a degree in between the two Jesii here
Jesus was not Palestinian. He was Judean.
Dear Jesus. Not responding to every “prove it” remark. But look, you people know that just because the supernatural clearly isn’t real, does not mean that Jesus was not a real historical figure. No serious historian thinks he wasn’t real. Most who study this period of history believe he was a real apocalyptic preacher, who was killed somewhat unexpectedly by the Romans, and whose followers at least claimed to have visions of him after his death.
None of these things are particularly far out there claims. There are many apocalyptic preachers today, no today we don’t kill them, but their followers also often claim they’ve seen some crazy things.
No serious historian thinks he wasn’t real.
One of the big problems with “Historical Jesus” isn’t that “historians don’t think he’s real” but that “historicans can’t prove he is”.
The period covered by the Bible had a surplus of Messiah-esque figures who all kinda had some of the characteristics attributed to Big J. And Roman historians of the period who had made a point of writing histories of the region failed to mention any of the key events recorded in the early Christian scriptures.
Most who study this period of history believe
The prevailing view among most serious historians is simply “Not Enough Information”.
That said, a bunch of the more miraculous events attributed to the figure are common to prior religious icons - virgin birth, walking on water, loaves and fishes, raising the dead, exorcising demons - while the parables predate the “Historical Jesus” by centuries, as well.
So the task of “disproving” Jesus is as sticky as “disproving” Paul Bunyon. Which is to say its trivial to announce a 60’ tall man who formed the Grand Canyon with his axe isn’t real. But nearly impossible to prove “famous tall lumberjack” never existed.
None of these things are particularly far out there claims.
The thing that made Jesus stand out above the parables and the miracles was his famous walk into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, his Last Supper, and his crucifixion. These are events that we find incredibly difficult to prove.
In fact, the entire historical record around Christianity as a faith is incredibly thin for its first 150 years.
To wrap your brain around this, consider if the modern American state had approaching zero preserved historical evidence of its existence until halfway Calvin Coolidge’s second term, in 1926. Then tag in claims that George Washington could fly and shoot lasers out his eyes. Or that Abraham Lincoln used a magic staff to part the Potomac and lead Confederate slaves out of bondage. Then try to have a conversation about “historical Presidents”. Imagine if the Constitution was revealed to James Madison on gold tablets that he found in a magic hat. How do you then take the Battle of Saratoga or the Gettsyburg Address or the Louisiana Purchase at face value?
This is the fundamental problem with “historical Jesus”. What records do exist are comically unreliable.
According to Paul he learned about the last supper in a dream and we know there was a popular fictional book in the empire that describes a last supper in a very similar manner.
Our historical evidence of the man is a dream based on a novel he had read. Not exactly a good argument
According to Paul
It gets worse than that, as the attribution to Paul is itself fuzzy. You’re talking about a possibly-historical figure recounting a dream based on a story that wasn’t properly codified until after Hadrian’s Wall had been in the ground for several decades
You think Paul was made up? That I find a bit surprising. What do you got?
You think Paul was made up?
I think you’re going to struggle to find any primary sources to support his existence. Even the Gospel of Mark is dated at around 70 AD, a solid 30+ years after the events it proposes to document. The Epistles all date to 175-400 AD.
Again, imagine if the only surviving copy of the US Constitution we had was composed under the Kennedy Administration.
The common assumption around the New Testament is that it was an oral tradition for at least a generation, and probably far longer. That’s plenty of time for a story to shift and spread. Was Paul an original Apostle of Jesus or was he an Evangelical living a 50 years later who had just appropriated the original Gospel messages? Was this a real person or a pen-name? One guy or a cult-branch of the new faith? A church leader who had people working on his behalf? A legacy heir writing on behalf of an elderly/deceased apostle father? A Roman convert using the name of an Apostle to engage in theological debate without exposing his identity to hostile state government?
Its all purely up for speculation.
One of the most irritating aspects of people who call themselves atheist is the complete lack of knowledge about the historical accuracy and existence of Jesus.
Sure, he was a schizophrenic religious zealot. A complete nut with good ideas. He existed but that’s the extent of it. There’s no divinity involved, but get off this ill-informed idea that the man didn’t exist.
Is this irony?
