I am assuming this is some sort of vegan talking point that since some human teeth are mostly flat, ignoring canines and some particularly sharp front incisors, humans are supposed to eat only plants? Aren’t humans omnivores though?
You are interpreting that backwards. I wouldnt say it’s a vegan talking point so much as a non vegan talking point in reverse. It’s commonly argued that because humans have canines were meant to eat meat. Whereas vegans fully acknowledge the capacity to digest meat and evolutionary history that evolved omnivorous diets (but argue the majority of (not all) people have a want rather than a need) . The vegans are just memeing back.
Humans have teeth suitable for both meat and plant foods. So I would say humans are omnivores.
I may be wrong, but a 100% vegan only diet I think requires supplements to be taken for certain things like proteins that humans need in order to live. Of course, those certain proteins are found in meats.
However, I think saying humans are carnovires would also be incorrect, and a 100% meat only diet would be I think equally as unhealthy as a 100% plant only diet.
I don’t think you read my post carefully. I said humans have teeth for both meat and plants. I didn’t say that humans aren’t omnivores. I just said (implicitly) that they are not obligate omnivores.
Proteins are not a concern, you can get all essential amino acids through only plant protein. Pretty much the only one that is hard to get enough of is B12. With real determination it can be done but it’s easier to just supplement. By the way, most omnis also do not get enough B12 and eat supplements either directly or through fortified foods. It’s just usually they are getting it through fortified milk which vegans don’t drink.
Milk is not typically fortified with B12. Plant based milk is more likely to be B12 fortified.
Probably depends on the country…
The idea that a pure plant-based diet can’t provide all the protein we need has been thoroughly debunked for a long time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DMwf_9wqWY0&pp=ygUdc3RhbmZvcmQgc2NpZW50aXN0IG9uIHByb3RlaW4%3D
The nutrient you’re thinking of is b12. Vegans need to supplement b12 (for now, discoveries are still being made on that front). But at the same time, in a sense, so does everyone else.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUyiiNwDNLU&pp=ygUOZWQgd2ludGVycyBiMTI%3D
You don’t need to supplement b12 if you eat meat unless you have health issues that cause malabsorption.
Not really, many many more people are B12 insufficient than there are vegans/vegetarians. And much of what B12 you get is because supplements are given…to the animals. See e.g. https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30
My natural diet includes energy drinks, ensuring I have a nutritionally balanced intake that includes B12 :)
(I say this jokingly, but it is literally true)
Say you’re a (fellow) GFuel nerd without saying you’re a GFuel nerd.
Nah, just monster
Where I live, various vegan-targeted foods are fortified with B12, so it might be possible to get enough B12 that way without supplementing.
a plant based diet is completely healthy as long as you eat varied foods and don’t try something stupid like subsisting on apples and dandelions.
There are world renowned athletes who are plant based…
And going back to your main point, it’s really just dubious to draw conclusions about what we are “meant” to eat based on the shape of our teeth. If all we’re considering is health and history, it’s not entirely accurate to say we’re just omnivores. It’s more like we are predominantly herbivores with some capacity for opportunistic omnivory in emergencies, but our ability to live on animal foods is rudimentary at best and comes at a high health cost. Also consider that from a Paleolithic standpoint, early humans would have been eating much more bugs as their protein, as that would have been far more abundant and easily gathered. Hunting is unreliable, and in most circumstances would have been a luxury at best (the book “Edible” goes into this).
Of course we also are becoming more intelligent, and have emerged the capacity for moral evolution. The paleo concept as a whole is ultimately just the argument from tradition fallacy. We can do better.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FNIoKmMq6cs&pp=ygUhcGFsZW9udG9sb2dpc3QgZGVidW5rcyBwYWxlbyBkaWV0
The paleo argument is about matching the environment of evolutionary adaptedness in diet, not tradition.
People seem to forget that human evolution started 3 billion years ago so our evolutionarily-adapted diet isn’t just “paleo”
meh I’ve heard mostly vegans make this dumbass argument.
I definitely support vegans but I don’t support pseudoscientific bullshit no matter who says it.
Have you realized you’re arguing with somebody named militant vegan yet?
If anything is dumbass pseudoscience, it’s the paleo diet, carnivore diet, and all other low carb diets.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FNIoKmMq6cs&pp=ygUhcGFsZW9udG9sb2dpc3QgZGVidW5rcyBwYWxlbyBkaWV0
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18596505-the-low-carb-fraud
Multiple different things can be dumbass pseudoscience, actually. Any time someone starts talking about what humans “were meant to eat”, I’m done listening. Humans can and do survive and thrive on an extremely broad variety of diets. It’s part of why societies were able to develop in so many different places.
Right, exactly. This is what I said. Humans _can _ survive on vegan diets. So the question becomes, if it’s possible to live a totally healthy normal life not eating meat, should you? This is the moral line that vegans come down on differently than the typical meat eater.
Nobody is arguing that humans can’t eat meat or that it wasn’t beneficial for our ancestors to be able to. The question is, if it’s not required, is it moral? Btw, veganism is about harm reduction. There are people to this day in impoverished countries who are actually required to eat meat to achieve sufficient nutrient intake. You will find 99% vegans having no problem with those people. But if you live in a country with basic infrastructure you probably have enough to at least significantly reduce meat intake
Another question is: if it’s moral, are you gonna do it for that reason?
I have no arguments against veganism. Vegans are right. Yet I am not a vegan.
This is the “fuck off, I like guns” of meat eating and pretty much the only argument I’m receptive to. I get frustrated when people argue they should be able to do things using bad arguments. But if you say, I don’t have a good argument for this but I’m gonna do it anyway, that’s at least being honest with yourself and I respect that a lot more.
Hi there! You appear to be interpreting some type of meat eating ideology from my comment. Let me encourage you to take it at face value - the only intent is to criticize the idea that humans are “meant” to eat particular foods, an idea present both in the meme that started this thread and in the above mentioned paleo diet
We are agreeing lol. My point is that vegans do not actually make this argument. I have yet to ever hear it made unironically. Sometimes it is made in jest because it is made to us with sincerity from meat eater ideology.
If anything is dumb it’s limiting your diet.
Nutritionfacts is a pseudoscience site.
The paleo diet is definitely, absolutely bullshit, but ketogenic diets have real use and purpose, if you can adhere to a strict ketogenic diet, and can do so without becoming malnourished (both of which are damn near impossible for most people). If you can get your body into a state of ketosis–not ketoacidosis, which is a potentially fatal condition most often associated with diabetes–then you burn off body fat much, much more quickly when you’re on a calorie-deficient diet, because your body is already using fats as a primary source for energy rather than carbohydrates. The downside is that you’ll feel like absolute dogshit for a few days until you adjust, since glucose is the preferred fuel for cellular respiration.
Nutritionfacts is a pseudoscience site.
thank you
Your defense of keto boils down to: people need to lose weight fast or they will give up, so its useful? Its an incredibly damaging diet if you were to stay on it for life.
And if you are only meant to use it to lose weight, what exactly do people transition to when done?
People have a real hard time separating Omnivores from Carnivores and Carnivores from Herbivores.
I suggest reading “The Nature of Predators”
Great learning tool for such things imo. The backbone of the story is those distinctions and their societal impacts. Vegans will hate it tho. As the BBEGs of the story use corruption, exploitation, coercion, genetic engineering, social engineering, and war to force omnivores and obligate carnivores to be obligate herbivores.
Man, it really is entertaining when religious zealots try to meme
Veganism isn’t a religion. It’s a simple moral framework, a practical moral baseline, and a social movement like any other. Would you call a social justice, anti-genocide, or lgbtq+ rights advocate a religious zealot?
This is your take, from someone who defines themselves as militant? Lol.
It’s absolutely a religion. One of the definitions of religion is “a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.” The examples you mention are much less narrowly defined. And if they started persecuting people who don’t join their specific method, then yes, they would be, too.
I mean, here you are proselytizing with poorly thought out memes. What’s more religious than that?
It aint a religion my man.
It’s #7 on the combo menu.
If pursuing something ascribed supreme importance is a religion, then being a doctor is a religion. Doctors ascribe supreme importance to the value of human life and to saving it.
Then it is. Not all doctors do, but ones who do would certainly fall under that category.
You see doctors educating, not badly trying to shame people to, for example, not participate in sports.
You would agree, then, that making fun of anti-vax people is unjustified, hateful, and forcing the religion of medicine down people’s throats?
Yes. Education works much better than mockery. Mocking people is for people who need to stroke their own egos. I’m confident in what I believe.
Ha ha. What a doofus.
You are completely ignoring the fact, that for many it is too time consuming and involved to go vegan. And then you are imposing your belief that others should invest the same amount of resources, be it time or money, or they are worse human beings not caring about animals. In other words, being able to switch your diet is usually a sign of at least slight financial privilege. I just had some tofu so you don’t have to preach to me. But let others be and do not compare veganism to anti-genocide. It is absolutely ridiculous.
Don’t compare veganism to anti-genocide? My anointed sibling (gnostic gender-neutral idioms >> orthodox gendered ones), every animal product eater/user is complicit in the largest perpetual genocide in human history.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft
In the first place remember that veganism isn’t only about diet. And it’s about doing the best that you can, with what you have. Not everyone can go fully vegan, and that’s understandable and okay as long as they’re doing their best.
Also, I’ve never owned property. I’ve never worked a job that paid enough to afford it (or rent) on my own. When I started transitioning my diet, it was when I had switched jobs to a factory setting with 40-48 hour work weeks (post-covid it was almost always 48 hours), 10 hour shifts on my feet all day. Prior to that I was dependent on eating fast food every day (with predictable rapidly declining health). I also lived in a food desert where going vegan meant that I had zero options for takeout.
I had no one in my life willing to help, in fact all the people around me made it even harder to change. I also have adhd, and can’t stand the concept of meal prep. So what I did was save up for an Instant Pot, and started making the largest batches of grains and legumes that I could, along with frozen veggies (mainly broccoli). I generally cooked only once a week, and then would combine the helpings of leftovers in different ways each day (to keep it from getting too boring) for both my work lunches and dinners.
And I also sought community. Having vegan friends helps immensely.
Don’t assume that I’m as privileged as you think just because I’m vegan. On the other hand I know there are too many people who are far worse off than I am, and everyone who is struggling too much to go fully vegan should never be condemned, on the contrary we should seek to help - because our current food system is killing everyone who is most disadvantaged and impoverished.
Our capitalist wasteland, particularly when you factor in health outcomes, means it’s even more important to at least go plant-based (not the same thing as veganism), and to help others do the same.
it’s not a genocide. the goal isn’t to wipe out pigs or chickens or cows.
It’s perpetual misery and slaughter.
i’d say husbandry then harvesting. i think most of the people who make our food would, too.
(Ignoring that our industrial animal-food system is probably a significant contributor to the vast extinctions we’re causing, since animal ag is the leading cause of wild habitat destruction).
Would you feel better about the human genocides that occur, if the mass murderers were deliberately and forcibly breeding the victims into existence so they could continue the cycles of killing perpetually? Or is playing word games more important than recognizing the reality of what we are doing collectively?
I feel like you missed the point at the detriment of people taking your position seriously. Words and their definitions are very important in communication and I feel like semantics is something that is very undeserving of the flippant treatment it routinely receives.
If someone were to accuse someone else of lying, this also comes with an accusation of intent. It isn’t sufficient for someone’s statement to be false to be a lie, there also needs to be intent to deceive. Intent to deceive implies that the liar at least knows what they’re saying is untrue, and possibly implies they know what is actually true depending on the context. However, if there is no intent to deceive, it’s usually a case of that person just being mistaken. How frustrating would it be for someone to be accused of lying when they say something they believe to be true? And how seriously should they take their accusers when not only being told their view of reality is incorrect, but also being informed that their own intent is malignant when stating something they believe is true?
So, when it comes to describing something as a genocide, you’re also describing intent. If you tell people that they’re killing animals with the intent to extinct them, they’re probably not going to take you seriously. It’s probably better to have someone tell you what their intentions are rather than just assuming you can slap a piece of paper saying “this is you” on a scarecrow before drop-kicking it.
i wouldn’t feel any better about it, but it’s not a genocide. if anyone is playing word games, is the person who insists on using the wrong word.
There is evidence to suggest that low income households are more likely to be vegan or vegetarian than high income households. So financial privilege is not a good deflection. The reason so many vegans are not sympathetic to the argument about time or effort is that for the vast majority of them they have lived experience contradicting it so it comes across as an excuse. they are not spending any more time or mental effort to eat than anybody else. When you first make the switch maybe you spend 10% more effort to learn new recipes, what you buy or whatever, but it quickly becomes routine as any other dietary system.
(I say they because I don’t identify as vegan for a variety of reasons, but it does make it easier to have a conversation to use labels. I don’t advocate people become vegan, but I do advocate they try to reduce their animal product intake the best they can. In the rare circumstance that the best they can is nothing I don’t judge.)
To me It seems you are upset that people are putting you in a moral category below themselves and your reaction is to assume that means they are wrong. Firstly, don’t think of people as putting you below them morally, but putting your actions into less desirable outcomes. Also, sit with that. Should you feel uncomfortable? If so, what is an appropriate reaction to that discomfort?
I don’t think it’s productive to quibble about whether it’s comparable to human ethical questions, so no comment on the genocide. People have been in trouble in the past for making comparisons to Jim Crow or slavery. I don’t think it’s appropriate either, just as it would be inappropriate to argue whether Palestinian genocide or slavery was worse.
nonetheless, during any time of ethical or moral awakening, there were people complicit with status quo in those scenarios, maybe even sympathetic to some of the arguments but valued social order over progress, who were asked to confront their complicity and they blamed the people pointing this out as the judgy problem starters rather than addressing the root problem.
First off, I am not vegan or even vegetarian. But every time I eat meat I am very aware that I am doing this from a very hedonistic point. It is not necessary for either my health or survival, nor is it morally or ethically ok. It just is not. Trying to find anything other than I like how it tastes as an argument is futile. But again, I am saying this as a person who does eat meat, not daily, but regularly.
You are completely ignoring the fact, that for many it is too time consuming and involved to go vegan.
It is not time consuming. Instead of making noodles with minced meat and tomato sauce you make noodles with tomato sauce. You literally leave out one ingredient, that’s it. Especially going vegetarian is literally a no brainer. If you aren’t too anal about being vegan (trace amounts etc) this is also really not time consuming. You don’t need to do fancy vegan recipes with sprouts or quinoa, this is the equivalent of cooking a beef wellington with truffle sauce for lunch. Even your walk through a supermarket is shorter because you don’t need to go through the meat aisle.
And then you are imposing your belief that others should invest the same amount of resources, be it time or money, or they are worse human beings not caring about animals.
You and I are less caring about animals and the planet. Even if we buy organic free range meat, we know the carbon footprint. We know that an animal was scared before its life ended untimely and unnecessarily. Let’s not fool ourselves here: It’s not a belief. It is what it is. It is a choice to make but let’s be clear: it is a choice. And as with every choice, it has consequences. Moneywise, I think I won’t tell you anything new by pointing out that meat substitute products are expensive, but a plain vegetable based diet is not per se expensive. Although I am very baffled by how little meat can cost - but we are talking about the lowest standard meat here. A kg of free range chicken breast is 30€ where I live. I can’t afford that every day for sure. And again, you don’t have to buy fancy sprouts, pea protein sausages, quinoa and all that. Rice, a can of kidney beans fried with an onion, and some sauteed veggies are a full meal which will not cost more or is more difficult or time consuming to make than any meat dish. Hell there’s even convenience food for vegetarians and vegans, which will - as all convenience products - cost more than if you prepared it yourself, but choose the resource you want to spend.
In other words, being able to switch your diet is usually a sign of at least slight financial privilege.
With a push to leave out meat, fish, and animal products, you are not being told to buy something. You are being told to leave something out. But I absolutely agree that if you are struggling to get by, then a kg of low quality chicken wings will get you fuller than a kg of bell peppers, which might also be more expensive. But the greatest majority of us - those not on food stamps or counting every penny - can absolutely afford to go vegan/vegetarian or at the very least leave out meat once in a while. Especially if you usually try to look for better quality meat (which is on the more expensive site) you can easily save money by leaving out meat.
I just had some tofu so you don’t have to preach to me. But let others be and do not compare veganism to anti-genocide. It is absolutely ridiculous.
If anything, not eating meat is more effective and more directly effective on ecological movements than protesting will be on your country’s (assumed by me) support of genocide. It’s very easy compared to much more complex issues. There are a lot of problems in the world that cannot be compared well but are all very important. You can address one and the other.
Suuure.
And not all social justice advocates treat it like a religion. But some do.
Also, trying to compare veganism, a system of belief, to genocide resistance and human rights is absurd to the point that it exactly makes my point.
There is no world in which fighting genocide is the same thing as avoiding animal products. None, no way, no how. The arrogance of your statement is so far beyond the usual responses my little troll statement gets that I’m outright flummoxed. I can’t believe anyone would be that stupid, that arrogant, that ridiculous.
And that goes just as much for lgbt+ rights. You are outright absurd making that comparison.
And that absurdity is exactly why veganism is a religion to way too many vegans. Like, I’m not anti vegan, I know and love many, I just like getting online vegans riled up for entertainment. But you jumped the damn shark big time homie. That kind of thinking, that’s why people that hate vegans hate them.
Man, I find it hard to not just start calling you names because damn, son.
What is this “system of belief” exactly?
Veganism. I said that
I meant, please clarify what is the belief, not the name of it
Are you messing with me? Because I’m not in the mood to play games.
If you aren’t, I’m afraid we’re going to have issues unless we start from a different place.
What I wrote was: >…veganism, a system of belief…
Now, when written that way, the phrase “a system of belief” is being used to specify that that is what veganism is. And that’s what it is.
If you don’t know what veganism is, I would suggest you ask someone that doesn’t troll vegans for a proper answer. Though, to be honest, veganism isn’t a single, universally codified system. It’s more like a general heading that includes a fairly wide range of what is and isn’t “really vegan”. So even asking vegans, you can get varied answers.
If you really want my quick and dirty synopsis of veganism, it comes down to two basic principles.
First, that animals must be treated in a way that would be completely without exploitation.
Second, that causing the death of an animal to serve the wants/needs of humans is a very specific and very “wrong” way of exploiting animals.
That’s about the core of it. All the rest is essentially defining what is and isn’t exploitation.
I’m sure a vegan would at least quibble over that over simplified explanation, but IDGAF, that’s what it amounts to looking at it from the outside. A bunch of folks that have strong beliefs about how animals and humans should share the planet.
If you go digging into vegan writing on the ethics of a human/animal interactions, there are a lot of ways of expanding on that simplified version, but having read some of it when offered by vegans I know personally, in real life, I would say that my version is good enough for someone that’s never seen the word before.
Now, veganism isn’t exactly a unique thing in execution. Plenty of people around the world don’t eat meat at all. And there’s some of those that don’t use animal products at all. But, they aren’t necessarily Vegan. It isn’t a central part of their identity. It comes down to cultural norms, poverty, availability, or some other factor than a specific belief about human/animal ethics.
Veganism as you’ll see in English using forums is quite different from that because it has another central belief that you don’t see in most of the writings about it. And that is why I use the specific troll that vegans are religious zealots. That other belief is that they’re right and everyone else is wrong, period. And, much like zealots of other religions, the bad vegans will often treat other humans poorly when they don’t agree with them.
There is only one TRUE BELIEF, and that is veganism.
That is a wee bit of hyperbole, of course. Not every vegan is an arrogant zealot. No more than any other belief based group. As I said, I have people in my life that are vegan, and I love them. I cherish them in my life. But they’re not assholes :)
I cook vegan food for them. I even cook vegan for them when I’m already cooking “regular” food to feed a dozen or so people and they’re the only vegan coming.
Anyway, that’s not only what veganism is, but why the entire thread happened.
If that didn’t answer your question, I’ll try to do better.
If you were just trolling the troll, then I’ll just let it go and hope you have a good day :)
i wasnt trolling, just that I was surprised that you called it a religious thing when it was just a silly meme about an anti-vegan talking point… at no point was there any kind of theism or superiority complex, it was just a funny joke… but you took a lot of time out of your day to write this so thank you. I’m vegetarian myself and am very well aware of what veganism is. What I didn’t agree with is that it was a belief akin to a religion
I think it’s just a diet.
Vegetalism is a diet, veganism is a bit more than that
My diet has been really deficient in leather jackets since becoming a vegan, at least I can still eat fruit leather.
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If they act like a zealot, then yes. Most, like most vegans, are not zealots and we can have a great conversation. Your name gives me the feeling that a productive conversation might be difficult. But, I’ll try my best. 😁
I chose my username to make fun of all the people who categorize vegans as militant anytime we speak out at all. It’s to highlight that the only vegan who isn’t seen that way is a vegan who stays silent and does nothing to speak out against the atrocities being committed against animals.
sImPlE mOrAl fRaMeWoRk
I’m sorry but this is equally terrifying as the real thing.
Those chompers are like 5 inch squares. Like a piece of bread made of bones
More like Chinese chef knives!
what a stupid meme. it’s almost like sharks don’t have arms and hands so they rely on their jaws more than we do. wow look we don’t have compartments in our stomach, we must not be fit to eat plants.
we dont have gills, so dont drink water
That’s…not what gills are for.
Then why can a straw fit in them?
then why fish the water 😂 because gills!
And our teeth aren’t for ripping flesh off the bone so it fits
Edit: we have hands and tools for that + we cook it
Yep. imagine going through life thinking all the smart people are dumb because you’re too fucking dumb to know how dumb you are.
Human teeth are omnivorous.
We have TWO semi-pointy teeth. Two.
*Even Wikipedia agrees the bottom two are bullshit.
Human teeth also have sharp peaks and deeper valleys within them which is the case for the overwhelming majority of omnivorous creatures. Most obligate herbivores have flatter teeth or will regrow them unless they have teeth explicitly for a particular use case.
Source: You can check out scads of scientific resources on herbivores versus omnivore versus carnivore teeth. I assume you know how a search engine works, but here’s a solid article on differences.
Also my sister has been one of the veterinary bigwigs at several zoos through her lifetime and we’ve had multiple discussions on it.
How is a blog a source? All you’ve given is anecdotal evidence. I have that too. Pandas, sharp teeth, claws, obligate herbivores. Gorillas, sharp teeth, big muscles, obligate herbivores.
I’m sure your sister is a fine veterinarian, and if we’re going to get anecdotal I have a degree in biology and don’t really care what opinion your sister has. I work for real medical doctors who are anti-vax. Someone’s job doesn’t make them sensible.
Errrr… are you looking for me to provide you a primary scientific source for how teeth work in animals with differing diets? Most of that is in veterinary texts (which is an amalgam of info), but it’s akin to asking for a scientific evidence for gravity. What you’re asking is too broad to be covered in a single paper and shows a misunderstanding of how scientific studies focus and function. I was simply giving you a primer since you asked, and that blog is good enough for that (and accurate from the portion I read).
I can point you at papers (such as this one on Tooth root morphology as an indicator for dietary specialization in carnivores) which can help explain part of how food selection works in evolution, but I’m not sure what level of information would satisfy you or why you’d even want it?
Here’s one on how tooth wear affects teeth differently based on evolutionary eating habits.
Here’s one on the development and evolution of teeth.
Here’s one on mammalian teeth in specific.
If you’d like more, feel free to use https://scholar.google.com/ to look for more.
I don’t have anything to add, but I want to take a moment to applaud your comment. Well done, truly.
I appreciate it! I mod !actual_discussion@lemmy.ca if you’d ever care to join us.
We try to disagree in good faith and not attack each other there.
I appreciate the effort given, especially on that last link 😅 However I’m not sure we’re on the same page. I don’t refute any of that. Of course an animal’s tooth morphology can help deduce its diet, but it’s far, far, from the only factor. Tooth morphology can also be a vestigial trait. Body parts don’t just fall off when they stop being useful, like the human tailbone for example. Or the body part may serve a different purpose. In the example I’ve given of the panda bear and gorilla, the teeth are both, they evolved in their meat eating ancestors AND they help tear apart the plants they eat. In fact this is true for almost all mammals, and your sister should be able to back this up, as does the Wikipedia article thrown at me earlier. Meat eating animals have broad flat molars in the back of their mouth. Herbivorous mammals have sharp incisors to help tear apart plant matter.
So yeah, we may have a couple of sharpish teeth, a characteristic we share with most herbivorous mammals. We have a whole lot of other herbivore characteristics as well.
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/
The expert I feel expresses my point well enough but the whole article is worth reading. You should send it to your sister and discuss it. :)
That paper is not really a source, it’s a literature review. That’s not inherently bad, but essentially all it does is pull things in from other (if you check, quite outdated by nearly 60 years, which is a lot, ESPECIALLY for biology) articles and say “… and therefore this other thing may be true.” It’s essentially philosophizing.
The paper neither invalidate nor proves anything, it simply makes a loose connection to a strange claim.
The author is correct that we do have characteristics of herbivores. However that is not something anyone was questioning; that’s literally one of the requirements for being an omnivore. We also have characteristics of carnivores. And even obligate carnivores will often have some characteristics of herbivores due to evolutionary holdovers.
The paper is, essentially, saying nothing of value.
Fair criticism. I’ll look harder.
Seeing as how we hunted multiple mega fauna to extinction, I’m gonna go ahead and say that humans have been eating meat for a very long time. Also there’s shit tons of archeological evidence for our omnivorous diet going back hundreds of thousands of years, but… whatever.
I will never understand why people feel the need to try and prove humans are supposed to be herbivores. Who gives a fuck? There’s ample evidence that your can eat a healthy vegan diet, who gives a shit about “supposed to” if you can eat vegan either way?
Okay, Liz. No one is trying to take your steak away, please calm down.
*Also this took two seconds to find: “Megafauna extinctions in areas where they coexisted with humans were most likely caused by a combination of human pressure and access to water."” But also it’s extremely obvious.
That physician is a bit out of his field of expertise, isn’t he?
Obligate. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
In all seriousness, pandas are still bears and can/do eat meat on occasion. Gorillas regularly eat insects and larva, digging up termite and ant nests. Our closest cousins the chimps are not only fully omnivorous, but are accomplished predators. Most herbivores (like ungulates, bovines, etc) will not pass up the opportunity to eat carrion, baby birds, small rodents, and the like.
something else wikipedia agrees…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Diet
Humans are omnivorous, capable of consuming a wide variety of plant and animal material. Human groups have adopted a range of diets from purely vegan to primarily carnivorous.
But I thought we were talking about teeth.
In the context of whether or not our teeth are fit to consume flesh, no?
The statement was “Human teeth are omnivorous.” Which I’ve given plenty of counter-examples to. Showing me that humans have varied diets does absolutely nothing to further the argument, I can already see that. If you want to feel better about your choices I’m not the one you need to convince.
Got it, you are wrong and have an attitude
So just to be clear; you are pro ‘human teeth are omnivorous’? That’s what you’re saying I’m wrong and have an attitude about? 🤨
Four.
Source?
Cool source (the second one, the first one fucking sucks I hate it 😁). According to it all mammals have canines, even and especially herbivores. The sabre-tooth water deer for example, cited in your source, has extremely pronounced canines. Still a herbivore. Next!
Downvote if you can’t refute!
I didn’t even take a stance on what the teeth mean for diet. I was just correcting you lol.
I mean the source you provided literally says the bottom canines are less pointy and pronounced than the top set, especially in humans, so I don’t feel very corrected? You keep at it though, I believe in you!
the fact that I can digest meat at all suggests that I am an omnivore
it is wonderful that you are vegan but please shut the fuck up trying to pretend that it is humanity’s natural state
Okay I won’t pretend.
I’ll cite factual studies instead.
"Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores."
Anyway if you want to pretend that the current factory farm hellscape is humanitie’s natural state, you go ahead because unlike you I have a philosophy of live and let live.
According to it all mammals have canines, even and especially herbivores
Such as this herbivore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg2mJ4veuAY
Flat teeth, ate meat.
Panda: sharp teeth, eats plants.
Almost like your argument falls apart at the slightest bit of scrutiny. Anyway
Your stupid mouth
You guys are so funny! Okay so FOUR semi-pointy teeth absolutely makes us omnivores I CANNOT believe what an idiot I’ve been!
i didnt know teeth was the only factor in if you are carnivore or omnivore or whatever. i thought it was the fact that humans have eaten both meat and plants for as long as humans have been around
Human teeth are omnivorous.
None of us can understand how stupid we are. We’re humans.
Ok that I whole heartedly agree.
Yes? And carnivorous ivories have only pointy teeth.
Carnivorous ivories? The pitcher plant?
Humans don’t have to kill things with their teeth. Sharks do.
Yeah one thing you notice about the ocean is the teeth are designed so if you catch something it can’t get away. Look at anglerfish and baleen. White sharks have hundreds of teeth. Most omnivorous land mammals have teeth just like ours.
This is just a bad comparison, but it is funny.
The joke is making fun of people who call us carnivores, though. Our teeth are very different from land carnivores, as well.
Again, humans don’t kill with their teeth like land carnivores do.
I understand that, but my point was that we aren’t carnivores at all, we are omnivores.
I am not vegan FWIW, I was just responding to the person who was saying that comparing us to sea carnivores was a bad comparison, when comparing us to land carnivores yields the same results. It seemed kind of like they missed the point of the joke which was to make fun of people who wrongly call us carnivores, especially as a response to veganism.
It was all kind of useless pedantry on my part, anyways, so I apologize.
Funny thing is, have You ever seen any human having this kind of teeth naturally? No? Good coz nobody has, maybe (just maybe) as replacements but that would be the really cheap ones.
Humans generally don’t need to kill animals.
Neither do cows but I’ve seen one too many slurp a Snake like spaghetti and eat baby birds as if they were KitKats
Just because an animal does it doesn’t mean it’s okay for humans to do it
Just because an animal does it doesn’t mean it’s okay for humans to do it
Then comparing human teeth to animal teeth is irrelevant no? Because what the animals do is irrelevant.
Aren’t we also “just” animals as well though?
(Not defending either side, I just really dislike it when statements suggest we aren’t also literally animals that somehow figured out to think slightly more than others…)
Technically correct is the best correct. We are animals!
We are animals in a very literal sense, but justifying an immoral act because it’s natural for animals to do it opens the door to justifying other immoral acts because animals do them. Humans are animals, but we’re uniquely the only animals capable of choosing to act ethically.
Explain why not
Many animals reproduce via rape. If I need to explain further, then I can’t help you
Don’t kid yourself, Jimmy boi. If a cow ever got the chance, he’d eat you and everyone you care about!
That depends on which humans and where. There are still plenty of tribes that live in areas where vegetation simply does not support their population. Luckily, humans evolved to be feed on more things than most things on the planet. We can eat plants, fungi, bugs, fish, etc.
So you’re right. Humans don’t need to kill animals. We can survive by killing just about any living thing on this planet. We can even eat things that would otherwise be super toxic to us by learning how to cook it, peel it, or skin it.
Pufferfish
develops one of the most lethal toxins in the animal kingdom
Humans
Oooh yummy!
Peppers
Develops a chemical that makes them taste like pain for mammals to make it more likely that birds will eat their fruit and spread it farther
Humans
Oooh, spicy! Let’s grow lots of these and breed some to maximize that spice!
Peppers
Wait no–oh nm, I guess it’s a surprise win.
It’s true. I usually eat animals that were killed for me. Thanks, grocery stores!
Nothing does.
Soon we’ll be able to produce all the meat we want without any conscious creatures involved
I’ll just wait until photosynthesis can support brain function.
You sick bastard. Oh well to each his own.
Well, I don’t like meat anyway, so…
I would be a vegan but I just don’t have the time or willpower.
I mean, the amount of time you have to spend bitching about other’s dietary choices is exhausting.
I’ve considered being like A half vegan Like a vegan but I’ll occasionally splurge at like events and restaurants
It’s not really considered as admirable tho and is just frowned upon by both vegans and non vegans
I’m proud of you. You’re doing something good even if you slip up. Me, I have decided to not go meat free.
What if you just did it without getting any credit. You don’t need others approval to make a positive change
You’ll find outspoken people on both sides, but despite their words the world is not black and white. Do what you can, do what you feel is best. Any harm reduction is harm reduction and an all or nothing mentality isn’t helping anyone anywhere.
I find vegan cooking to be easier, but I’m not a vegan and will eat meat at restaurants or if someone else cooks, or at least cuts the meat which is a total pain in the ass and leaves packaging that makes the garbage stink like nothing else.
The bitching is universal though. I used to take my dad’s home cooked food to school and one that got the most questions was the spicy tofu and pork. I could call it literally ‘tofu and pork’ and people would ask if im vegan and if that’s why I’m not muscular at all etc.
Yet here you are?
Leave him alone. His anus is bleeding
Our canine teeth are pretty shark-like. Not all of our teeth are that way though. So going by our teeth, I think we’re omnivores.
The prevalence of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and autoimmune disorders in western society indicates that we are really shitty at being omnivores at best.
Holy shit why can’t vegans shut the fuck up about veganism
They’re part of the “If I’m doing nothing then I’m part of the problem” crowd.
Otherwise known as “moralizing busybodies”
People who mentioned veganism: Just you, Bud.
Downvote if you’re secretly attracted to your own dad.
How can I downvote twice?
- Spin up your own instance
- Set up a bunch of bot accounts to spam downvotes at people that post inflammatory garbage on popular communities
- We all profit
I’m sorry, my reply is inflammatory garbage? Not the person calling out vegans in a comment under a meme? Yeah, okay.
Here, take mine since I’m not attracted to my dad. 🤣 (I applied it for you to the other guy… Maybe I am attracted to my dead dad- I do eat meat and that’s obscene according to these vegans)
Did you try just hitting downvote again? 😅
So, I didn’t see OPs username. I heretofore concede that someone did mention it. I hope in time we can both take what we learned from this experience and incorporate it into our respective journeys. More importantly I hope this hasn’t permanently damaged our relationship. I’d hate to lose what we had.
Look at the name of the person posting. Kinda makes a statement.
Ah, crap. Extremists ruin everything.
Says the person tying to claim humans are supposed to be herbivores.
I haven’t said that?
That paper is making some absolutely ridiculously unscientific comparisons, and immediately ignores the existence of omnivores after flatly stating that most people eat an obvious diet. It’s absolute trash.
You can get vegan cyanide from bitter almonds.
Find the nearest school bus and just get on.
Ok that was a fun one the first couple of times I heard it. 🙉
Sounds like you need to spend less time online then :)
I always laugh at people that never saw a pacu
Aww it’s British.
That’s okay. I didn’t feel like getting any sleep tonight anyways…
You must laugh a lot
It’s good for you. More people should.
The secret to happiness is you must laugh and sweat every day.
— Yogi Bhajan
Typical vegan shitposting
Nice, isn’t it?
No. It never is
I fear you have a shitposting deficiency.
But… who ever says that? I’ve never heard of this idea presented as evidence for why we should eat meat.
I definitely have.
Vegans who actually believe what they preach spend more time on education and less on shaming or meaningless memes.
This is just posturing.
Part of vegan education has carnist shame as a condition.
Does my profile appear to be deficient in educational materials?
Your behavior disinclines me to learn more, tbh.
I think you’re hitting on an interesting concept with regards to activism: that it can be categorized into actions that raise awareness, and actions that provide education.
Take, for example, this story about climate activists blocking traffic in Amsterdam to protest ING’s financing of fossil fuels exploration. Though you may disagree with the methods used in the protest, it’s hard to deny the success of it based on the national attention it drew. Because of it, more people who are opposed to the idea of expanding fossil fuel use are aware of ING’s funding of it.
I think very few people would say that they are now in favor of fossil fuel exploration, or simply do not care to learn more about environmentalism due to the controversial actions of the protesters.
I suppose my question for you is, what would have made you want to seek more information about veganism, and what about this post made you suddenly not want to lean more?
I can tell you what has led me towards veganism: Friends who knew how to make amazing vegan food. Knowing how to do it economically. Understanding the nutrition concerns and how to work around them. Access to good ingredients. Ways to slowly eat more vegan without rigidly jumping into it. Seeing the environmental impact. Seeing how animals are typically raised and slaughtered. Growing my own veggies and/ or participating in community gardens, etc.
I said I didn’t want to learn more about OP or their perspective. Personally, I already know quite a bit about how to eat vegan… which isn’t, by the way, the same thing as veganism.
Calling this activism is a stretch at best.
There’s a pretty big gap “making it on the news to raise awareness for your cause” and “mastabatory shitposting on social media”
dude isn’t sneaking video evidence of wrongdoing out of a factory farm… just photoshopping bad dentures on sharks.
I agree that any movement needs both friendly and provocative advocacy to affect change, but the only thing these types of posts accomplish is helping OP feel superior.
Would you level the same criticism against someone posting memes about climate change?
If the posts were this pointless and unthinking, yes.
