Each individual is facing the following choice in life:
- sacrifice to save the planet, and fail
- or not
People want to immediately jump to “if everyone would just …”
Nobody is looking at an “everyone does X” button. People only have their “I do X” button available.
So that is literally the answer to your question. Very few people would sacrifice the civilization to eat a cheeseburger. But nobody has that choice or that power in their hands. Their choice is eat the cheeseburger or not, and the survival of civilization stays rigidly the same between those two choices.
Best response. Almost everyone alive has a net negative impact on the environment. Maybe that one Indian guy who planted a whole forest by himself gets a pass. We can try to be less negatively impactful depending on our inclinations, resources, and other interests and priorities. Some people may choose vegetarianism, some might buy an electric car or install some solar panels, some might organize politically for a new policy. Some might spend their altruism improving social conditions rather than focusing on the environment. But being ever so slightly less of a negative impact on the environment than your neighbour who has a slightly different set of priorities is hardly a reason to feel morally superior.
There’s truth to that. None of us is free of blame, and there’s always going to be a cost associated with the luxuries and comforts that many of us enjoy; but it’s not about “feeling morally superior”, it’s about doing the right thing, reducing unwarranted harm and suffering as much as you reasonably can. And changing your diet, eating more fruits and veggies and less meat, is probably one of the least obtrusive ways to do so (save for folks with rare medical conditions, or people who live in an environment without an abundance of arable land). Even if you don’t give a shit about the suffering of animals or the environment, you at least ought to care about your own well-being.
I’ve eaten meat my whole life, still do… but I’ve cut back a lot, and it really hasn’t been that difficult. Every time this conversation comes up, nothing annoys me more than the hive-mind crawling out of the woodwork to dump on vegans for daring to speak out against something that is demonstrably harmful in several ways, and then claim that vegans do it only for the purpose of moral grandstanding. Moreover, the absurd amount of appeals to nature and the lazy “bacon tasty” retorts make all of these people look like fucking dorks.
You don’t have to flagellate yourself for eating meat, you don’t even have to give up meat entirely… But don’t be a jackass about it, acknowledge the harmful reality you’re contributing to and you can either accept it for what is, cut back and reduce your contribution, or choose to lead a life that doesn’t enable it at all.
The bitter thing is: we could just implement the “Everyone does X” button. By creating according laws. But that doesn’t happen either. Because suddenly “I would do it, if everyone else did it too” turns out to be just an excuse.
Not everyone has the time and resources to commit to every ‘good’ fight under the sun especially when the systemic problems are as deeply rooted in our society as they are.
Which device did you post from? Did you vet it wasn’t made with slave labor? You might need to go recycle all your devices and unfortunately that will cut you off from getting your message out to the world.
Your post does more harm to your cause than good because it just makes everyone angry at you.
Potatoes, pasta, bread, legumes, nut butters, vegetables, fruits, jelly, jam; all things that many people already eat with some regularity.
Time and resources are hardly an excuse, you don’t have to spend two hours a night preparing some 5 Michelin star meal with the most organic, non-GMO, [insert buzzword] ingredients in order to make better dietary choices, at least not in the first world where we have ample options… Shit, even just reducing your meat intake by 10% is a net harm reduction that adds up.
The slave labor thing is valid to an extent, but not entirely analogous. For better or for worse, modern society is increasingly dependent on technology; folks rely on it, in some form, to find/perform work, pay the bills, stay in contact with friends and family, survive the climate they live in, travel, etc… This isn’t typically the case with meat, it’s often just carnal desire which results in the death of something to the tune of ~80 billion (with a “B”) animals every year that didn’t really need to be slaughtered.
People absolutely should be upset about the conditions of workers being exploited anywhere in the world and advocate on their behalf where possible, but our position shouldn’t be: “Oh, some bad shit happened over here, so I guess it’s fine to allow this bad shit over here to proliferate as well”… just sayin’.
I’s often just carnal desire which results in the death of something to the tune of ~80 billion (with a “B”) animals every year that didn’t really need to be slaughtered.
I’m genuinely curious: what’s the vegans’ answer to the question of “what happens to the cattle and other livestock if everyone on the planet turned vegan tomorrow?”. It’s not like they can just be let loose…
Realistically the amount of livestock is not sustainable and they’d need to be culled in gargantuan numbers so that they don’t go from a “managed” ecological disaster to an “out of control” ecological disaster. And then you get the slaughter without the benefit of feeding billions of hungry people.
I mean the premise already feels a bit absurd, but I’ll play…
I’m not a vegan myself, and I don’t really hang out in vegan spaces that much, so my answers may differ from your typical vegan, or not… who knows. But I suppose if the general goal is to preserve life where possible, then you should absolutely try to find some place for the animals to live out their days in peace. If we can manage to stuff them all in neat little boxes on the land we have now, I doubt it’s some intractable problem. You don’t have to let 'em run free and “out of control” per se, repurpose the land of the now defunct factory farms and slaughterhouses, build a number of sanctuaries all over the place, and plop 'em there. Of course, no one can possibly know all of the variables involved, so I’m not saying this is a well thought out solution, I’m just spitballing… but we’re not exactly hurting for land, to my knowledge.
However, suppose I granted you:
Realistically the amount of livestock is not sustainable and they’d need to be culled in gargantuan numbers
Why would that necessitate this outcome?
And then you get the slaughter without the benefit of feeding billions of hungry people.
Veganism isn’t some virus that physically prevents you from eating meat, and plenty of vegans have been meat eaters at some point in their lives. If it came down to it, I imagine there would be a steady supply of folks who would opt to revert temporarily instead of letting it go to waste. Vegans may disagree with me here, but I think it’s certainly a more ethical choice if the animals are already dead, can’t let the sacrifice be for nothing.
The vegan viewpoint on animals really just boils down to eliminating unnecessary suffering and death. Many are fine with the prospect of hunting, fishing, or raising livestock for food when there aren’t other options (eg. environments with insufficient crop yields to feed everyone or infrastructure to get other food), the problem arises from the fact that those of us privileged enough to live in a land of abundance continue to needlessly slaughter. Do we need to eat? Of course. Do we need to kill things to do it? Fuck no.
All that said, I think a more realistic transition scenario would be something like the meat industry halting slaughter operations, exhausting their existing supply until either there are no animals left to kill, or there are a small enough quantity to where we can just yeet the rest onto some farms somewhere. Not that vegans would be entirely on board with that, being anti-slaughter and all, but it’s at least a reduction in harm and a more believable way for things to play out… I think.
Eating beef is expensive, though. I agree with the rest.
Stop eating meat, it’s easy, you change your diet and are healthier.
Honestly stop saying “Your post does more harm to your cause than good because it just makes everyone angry at you”
It’s a tired and worn out excuse to avoid saying “I’m lazy and selfish”
Can you provide some product comparisons that include cost and nutritional value? Take into account dietary restrictions as well. Not for me personally but for anyone in general.
No, do your own work if you actually care or are you just trying to “gotcha” me?
The ‘gotcha’ was going to be: “Great information! This is the kind of post that might actually change someone’s mind.”
But instead we have condescending posts/comments that assume everyone simply has the means to make a significant change in their life.
Well I suggest you go to one of the many places where people are talking about it. I hesitate to share one with you but try
Great! Now someone reading this thread that just learned that beef is bad has a community they can look into.
I actually very rarely eat red meat myself but it’s for dietary reasons. Poultry and fish are my biggest source of protein but I still get a good amount from seeds, beans, etc.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !veganhomecooks@lemmy.world
Yes, they’re just trying to “gotcha” you. They could spend five seconds and look up that information on the same device they’re posting from.
So could the poster, but you certainly are not accusing him of trying to “gotcha” other people.
OP? Seems like they’re asking for anecdotes and wanting to discuss it. The “gotcha” commenter seemed to clearly be insincere.
In what way? He was clearly receptive to the link given by the other guy. The fact that you only see what you want to see is the real problem here.
It’s easy when you only need to care about your own needs. Try saying that with a family and kids…based on your comment I suspect you can’t.
Lead by example, or are you too weak to do that?
You could certainly lead by example by not acting like an insufferable asshole and giving the movement a bad look.
You could choose to stop murdering animals, yet here we are.
I’m pretty sure more animals got killed by you turning off people against the movement than I ever cause by eating beef my whole life. I barely eat beef in the first place, and most of what I eat comes from small scale local farmers. So congrats, I guess, for killing more cows than me.
You’re just making shit up to try and justify your stance. It’s hilarious.
I’m lazy and selfish
Not that lazy considering it didn’t need to be said. You do you though chief. Good luck getting help to change.
I don’t need help
I mean you just admitted you are lazy and selfish. Not a great look is it?
Who cares
Meeeeèeee
Why do people eat food they know isn’t good for their health? Why do people continue to buy products from companies that have proven to only sell bad products or engage in scumbag practices?
They all have the same answer.
It turns out in 1961 the American heart Association took bribery money from procter and gamble, who owned and sold “healthier Crisco” cooking oils that weren’t high in saturated fat, like beef and other cooking oils were.
The AHA then claimed and pushed that saturated fats caused heart disease.
Problem is, something like 88% of every study done in the past 60 years has found little to no link between heart disease and saturated fats.
So beef, according to most studies, isn’t bad for you. The AHA was just crooked and on the take, being paid off to sell Crisco.
Now it is calorie dense and people tend to eat too much of it, but that seems to be a lot of things. Don’t eat too much or you get fat. But apparently, you don’t have to worry about saturated fats being bad for you.
someone else online summarized the genetics part as the following:
Mandelian randomisation studies show that LDL-c is causative in atherogenic plaques 1 and metabolic ward RCTs show that SFA intakes increase LDL-c, while the decrease in SFAs lead to lower total and LDL-c 2.
But yes, almost all nutrition science is a bit inconclusive because of genetic variation.
Forgive me, because I’m struggling to understand the linked information, but as someone with atherosclerosis this is an issue close to my heart (ha!).
I just want to make sure I understand you.
Your link to the european heart journal says that the causal link between LDL and ASCVD is “unequivocal”.
I think the WHO study says (amongst a lot of other complicated stuff) that replacing SFAs with PUFAs and MUFAs is more favourable than replacing SFAs with complex carbohydrates? The strong implication being (although I couldn’t see this exactly) that higher SFA intake contributes to heart disease.
I don’t think it tries to compare carbohydrates to any UFAs, but the implication is indeed that SFAs significantly contribute to heart disease.
effects on the serum lipoprotein profile of reducing SFA intake by replacing a mixture of SFA with cis-PUFA […] or cis-MUFA […] were more favourable than replacing SFA with a mixture of carbohydrates.
Ah, thanks, I’ve missed that.
I always keep in mind the first doctor to advocate washing hands after handling corpses was laughed out of medicine and died alone in an asylum ironically enough from sepsis.
To that point, the vast majority of research on nutrition is done on the presumption carbohydrates should be the foundation of our diet. Even “low” carb diet studies with have 30% of the calories coming from simple carbs. Oddly enough, the human body works much differently and much better when you don’t give it -any- sugar: https://youtu.be/cST99piL71E
I can expand, but briefly, sugar acts like a sandblaster through your heart and shreds the endothelium (the finger-things that move things in and out of the bloodstream). LDL is a repair van that drives around with cholesterol and saturated fat to repair the plaques. (HDL brings empty LDL back to the liver) The entire logic of blaming cholesterol for heart disease is like blaming bandaids for stab wounds. Doctors say eat less fat and more “healthy whole grains” (carbs) and the liver makes more cholesterol. Doctor sees cholesterol is still high because the body needs it and prescribes statins which impair production. This leads to nerve pain because it’s what literally every nerve in the body is insulated with.
The problems with cholesterol stem from it sitting in the bloodstream and glycating due to prolonged sugar exposure. Sugar staying in the bloodstream is basically ketoacidosis, so clearing sugar is a priority that results in LDL gumming up and going bad, essentially.
I can expand on this, but basically the human body needs predominantly fat with some protein and actually zero carbs.
Poor Semmelweis he deserved better
I totally agree with your comment but would like to add:
Most of the studies used to vilify Animal sourced foods are observational, based on food frequency questionnaires, the entire cohort is eating high carb, and heavily influenced by healthy patient confounders. At best these are hypothesis generating papers, they should not be used to make diet choices, or set policies.
Absolutely. Great video on the matter: https://youtu.be/xDgzgDSInt0
This is a great video, I havent seen it before.
I like this cited document on the subject as well: https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/red-meat
There is a !ketogenic@dubvee.org community here if your interested.
Why do people drive when they know it’s bad for the planet
Because I live in America and there’s pretty much no public transportation.
Trust me, if I had a train, I’d fucking use that sucker. Travel into town for my weekly errands AND I don’t have to deal with people not using cruise control on a highway? SIGN ME THE FUCK. UP.
why do people live in America
Because they don’t have the money and the requisite professions to leave.
Why do people buy from Amazon/Walmart when they know it’s making their country poorer?
Why do poor people vote for millionares when they know they don’t care about the poor?
Some of us work multiple part time jobs to barely make it.
I’d probably stay in the basement if I didn’t need to pay my landed lord their monthly tribute.
buy some cheap sliver of land and park a bus on it. save up and find a better sliver of land and plan from there.
Is it capitalism?
Do you think people in non-capitalist societies only eat the healthiest of foods?
Same reason we use electricity despite not being 100% green energy and thus being even worse for the earth?
If you actually wanna guilt this question then the fuck are you doing using your coal and gas powered electricity to do it?
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, because the capitalists have seen to it that you will never be permitted to make an ethical choice that would dare compete with what they expect you to choose.
Being a moralizing prick doesn’t send any message, what gets people to change is making that change easy, that’s why instead of being terminally online fuckwads, british vegangelists spread the good news by hosting free kitchens, volunteering to take people grocery shopping on their own pound, teaching vegan cooking classes, and all other sorts of actually addressing literally any of the actual concerns people have about going vegan instead of being a condescending snob about it.
If you actually wanna guilt this
Being a moralizing prick
All OP did was stating a simple fact. If you feel the need to outrage over science, then the problem is certainly not OP.
So honestly, in your opinion, one of the only ways a vegan can change people’s minds is to take them shopping and PAY for their food for them. Amazing, this is a new level of shitty push the blame away behaviour. Pathetic.
You’re saying that trying to motivate people positively to move on from meat is “push the blame away” behavior. But I think tut-tutting individuals who eat meat is pushing the blame away.
While there are some people who believe that eating meat is an absolute moral wrong no matter where or when it takes place in human history, a lot of people who feel eating meat is immoral feel this way because of what the meat industry does, both to the animals and to the planet. Five thousand years ago, people weren’t supporting the meat industry and all its wrongs by eating meat.
So considering it to be pathetic to try to effect real reduction in people’s meat consumption because the methods shift blame away from the individual meat eater seems really ironic to me, as well as completely counterproductive, if your goal is less meat consumption in the world.
There is no positive motivation to move people away from meat. Health maybe? Shame and forcing self-reflection is one of the few effective tools.
Your last paragraph is just rubbish. That’s not what I was calling pathetic.
There is no positive motivation to move people away from meet. Health maybe?
Did…did you just admit that you people don’t actually believe your own propaganda about why going vegan is better?
Also, pretty objectively shame doesn’t actually do anything, lecturing at people about why they’re wrong doesn’t convince them of anything, at best they just write you off as that ass who’s lecturing at them, more often they take it as a fight signal and shut down to you completely.
Key word there is motivation. I know its 10 letters long so I can explain it if I have to.
Yeah like how you’re pretty clearly motivated to suck at actually spreading the message because then you get to keep your feelings of moral superiority all to yourself.
Look, you’re here to fight not be informed. It’s really obvious and I don’t care what you think or say.
Man, you are an amazing pro-meat troll.
Why do vegans always think they have the moral high ground?
Don’t poke the beast. Paragraphs incoming.
Probably because they do, at least in the realm of dietary choices. Choosing to slaughter billions of sentient creatures every year for food and accessorization, when the majority of us have an abundance of other options, is morally fucked… and this is coming from somebody who eats meat with some frequency.
Just because we like it, or because it’s easier, or because it’s “tradition” doesn’t mean it’s morally righteous, it just means we’re selfish assholes 💀
When people lash out at vegans it always seems to boil down to some degree of cognitive dissonance… Eat meat and revel in the immorality if you so desire, no one’s stopping you; but don’t fucking lie to yourself, and don’t get butthurt when someone holds a mirror up to your face. The loss of life, environmental impact, and the effects on our own health is enough justification to argue in favor of veganism, vegetarianism, or some other alternative that doesn’t result in needless harm.
Why does “whatever the fuck you are” have an inferiority complex?
Why does, “what ever the fuck is this comment” make no sense?
He means it as a placeholder for whoever the previous commenter identifies himself as. It’s a response to him addressing vegetarians but not specifying what we should call him.
Cow yummy
This has got to be a troll, right?
We have a vegan infestation unfortunately.
Tastes gud
I did try to reduce the impact of what I eat, but I haven’t found a replacement for using chicken with a slow cooker. Beef also tastes good, especially when I eat at a restaurant.
I have stopped making hamburgers on my own (and replaced them with fish or soup), but I haven’t put more effort into reducing my impact recently.
? I think you can safely get rid of a slow cooker as there is no need for this when you cool with veggies…
Then I can’t eat all the wide variety of delicious meals that are only possible with a slow cooker.
I mean going vegetarian or vegan by definition reduces your options.
That said, there are lots of delicious slow cooked vegan foods. Despite what the other commenter says, there certainly are flavours & textures available that are not easily accessed on the hob, even eating plant based.
This rage bait question could be reworded as…
Why do people consume <anything> when we know it’s bad for the earth.
I think it’s valid that he chose the #1 food source problem to talk about first. Once we fix that, let’s discuss #2.
Because most of the people eat the same kind of food their parents have been eating.
In my country at least beef consumption peaked around 2012 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/24/uk-meat-consumption-lowest-level-since-record-began-data-reveal)
I think post WW2 there was a drive towards the idea that we’d never need to go without. This combined with lifestyle changes (more people working longer hours) gave birth to the rise of fast convince foods and the mass growth of places like McDonalds and Burger King.
Why don’t people just stop? Ideas within society have a lot of momentum, they take a lot of energy to get started and a lot to turn or stop again.
This might not be a “stupid” question, but it sure is a loaded and leading one that for sure isn’t in good faith. Welcome to my block list, enjoy your stay.
Where I live the beef is local and cheap. I’m not able to obtain enough protein without meat, as confirmed by a doctor and a nutritionist when I tried to go vegetarian. With food costs so high it’s cheaper to buy cow than anything else, but when I have the money I opt for fish or turkey. I looked into hunting but it’s prohibitively expensive for me with permits, tags, guns, licenses, days off and transportation. I tried fishing for myself as well, but whenever I get time to do it, there are warnings about eating fish in the area. When there aren’t I never catch anything big enough to legally be allowed to keep. I’d like to get chickens if/when local government ever lifts the bylaws preventing it.
I’m not able to obtain enough protein without meat
How does that work? Isn’t egg white pure protein? Surely eating a pile of boiled eggs would give you the same amount of protein as a steak, not counting stuff like cheese and legumes.
Oh gee I didn’t try eggs or dairy in the months I felt like shit after going veggie, and neither the doctor nor nutritionist suggested that either. You solved all my dietary needs and I can give up meat now after years of trying to figure out the most sustainable diet I can manage.
Sorry, I was trying to ask a genuine question, I didn’t mean to come across in a negative way.
I’d still be very interested in the answer.
Sorry about that, it’s the internet. I’m not a doctor, but it was explained to me that proteins from different sources are not all the same and, while I can process protein from a variety of foods, I don’t do it as efficiently as with muscle proteins. The nutritionist I spoke to - who was a vegan and a vegan activist - said people like me need about 1-2 chicken breasts per week. It’s not uncommon, a lot of people who try to go veggie and can’t hack it just go back to meat without trying to figure out why they felt sick and tired. Other people have said it’s genetic based on your ancestors, but I haven’t seen a lot of evidence to support that. Other sources point to evidence you can alter the way your body processes things by following specific diet plans, but I’m not prepared to feel that shitty again to figure it out.
Thanks, hadn’t heard about that before.
I’d advise you proof read future questions then. Your initial question came across as very dismissive and condescending.
Thanks, I’ll try to be mindful of that! English isn’t my first language, so there is surely some nuance to be learned.
Their all just using very personal examples to try and prove you wrong. You’re not.
Egg and dairy allergies are among the most common food allergies, so I’d guess that something like that might be the issue?
I and others are over here with soy, egg and gluten allergies that restrict pretty heavily what I can eat. But go off since you have it all figured out, king.
Sorry about your issues, I never meant to diminish them. I was genuinely curious about how one can become so limited in ones protein intake, but clearly worded my question poorly.
You know who else has restrictions on their food? Vegans. You’d have thought you’d be more sympathetic, but nah, you’re negativeyoda.
By choice, dingus.
I don’t have that option. Big Ole difference. Maybe give everyone Lyme disease so they develop red meat allergies and we can talk
Okay. You want me to double down? I won’t eat at vegan places most of the time. Here’s the thing: vegetables are delicious. So why?
Vegans will support a vegan place no matter what and will talk it up as being amazing even if it sucks. I’ve been burned being told, “oh. That place is so good” and it’s just a matter of vegans circling the wagons and propping up a place that serves a lazy impossible burger with fake plastic cheese on it. Y’all ain’t accountable and it makes it difficult taking vegan food seriously. No wonder y’all’s food has an inferiority complex
How about we shift to talking about portion control and be less all or nothing?
How about we don’t engage in reasonable, healthy discussion and instead throw shit?
Because it tastes great and it’s today, and not tomorrow.
