If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent. Either way, you have no business lecturing about the moral course of action in this crisis.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Jokes aside I unironically agree with everything you just said.
Can I get a double with no pickle, medium fry and a frosty to dip my fries in?
a frosty to dip my fries in?
If this is what the kids are doing nowadays, I hate the kids
This is what my wife introduced me to 20 years ago.
It was featured in the TV Show “Rocket Power” like 20 years ago, and people in the USA have been ordering burger, fries, and a milkshake since like the 1940s or even before.
I’ve seen this sentiment expressed but I thought you expressed it super well, fwiw
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent.
The answer to Biden’s complicity in Netanyahu’s genocide is greater political pressure for him to stop.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop? That’s a silly opinion if so. Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
I want this to end as much as you, but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect. And in our country there are only 2 options so vote for. So if I’m not voting for Biden, I am just helping Trump get in office and do more harm.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop?
I don’t know. They sure as hell don’t want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide.
Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
Then they should pressure Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. They won’t. They get mad at people who say Biden should stop supporting genocide instead.
I want this to end as much as you,
Yeah.
but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect.
Yes. He should still stop supporting genocide. Maybe centrists should say so.
You can be 2 things at the same time. This whole thread is about voting. It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
What doesn’t make sense is voting in a way that will end up significantly worse for Gaza and saying you’re doing that because you can’t possibly support Biden.
It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
Then centrists should start doing the former in addition to the latter.
Instead, they scream that anyone who does the former wants trump.
Of course, people who want an excuse to support trump will pretend anyone not vocally raging about Biden every day is a lover of genocide.
I’ve said multiple times in this thread that I’m voting for Biden. I’ve told you that multiple times as well. You have chosen to ignore it and call me a trumpist.
Your insistence on pivoting the conversation to be anti-biden literally every chance you get is suspicious to say the least
You can’t defend support for genocide, so you attack those who oppose it.
You know a lot of people really are as stupid as you take them to be, but many aren’t. What you’re doing here is obvious
Oh? what I am I doing? What’s the newest baseless accusation are you going to throw at me because I don’t like genocide?
Israel committed a far bigger land grab under Biden than under Trump
Israel’s largest land seizure since Oslo Accords deals fresh blow to Palestinian statehood
Biden rejects the Palestinian UN application
US vetoes widely supported resolution backing full UN membership for Palestine
Genocide Joe lies that israel isn’t committing war crimes so he can send them more bombs to commit Genocide with
Leaked U.S. Memos Say Israel May Be Violating International Law In Blocking Gaza Aid
Trump cannot be worse for Palestine than Biden. Biden fully supports full Genocide of all Palestinians. Accusing opponents of Biden of being Zionist agents is top tier irony.
Comments like this are why no one should trust your motives
Strange how the people the jump in to question my motives are always those that actively defend israel.
"If you disagree with me, you like it when children are killed. "
Hmm who’s normally making that argument?
Not republicans. That’s definitely for sure.
Guys it’s perfect. All you have to do is pretend that a) you’re a Biden voter so you have credibility and b) you care about Palestinians. Anyone who questions you can instantly be considered a bloodthirsty racist monster. We can turn thousands of voters against Biden and all we have to do is pretend to give a fuck about these people. It’s genius actually!
Collapses into a pile of furious masterbation
Edit: I responded to the wrong drone but everything but the Biden voter part here still applies
People aren’t upset because Biden isnt trying hard enough to stop Israel. We’re upset because he’s an active participant in what theyre doing. Using executive orders to bypass congress to get them more weapons.
I’ll be nice and assume you’re just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
No, don’t worry, just like how the right-wing winning in the US will TOTALLY lead to the left-wing suddenly organizing and taking power, enabling genocide will actually STOP it.
God, the brilliance of this modern form of accelerationism, it’s just… frightening, isn’t it?
“First Hitler, Then Our Turn!”
Famous rallying slogan of the Weimar Communist Party
Oh right because the fascist whose party’s project 2025 proposal secures him as king and destroys democracy isn’t Hitler, the other guy because Israel. Meanwhile, Donny spent most of his propping up and outwardly supporting Bibi telling the world he’s the real friend of Israel. You complain about Zionism but support Fascism so what are you actually trying to accomplish?
Famous just not real, it comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Höltermann from the SPD. I think it got misattributed in english because Americans didn’t know the difference between social democrats and communists.
While said by Holtermann (though in a different sense - saying that after Hitler, the SPD will have to clean up; rather than saying Hitler will radicalize the working classes by his grotesque behavior), it was more prominent as a KPD slogan in opposition to a united front with ‘social fascists’ (the SPD).
It’s the Civ Ghandi manoeuvre: Vote for the right wing until the value wraps around and you win!
The side effect is sadly that you are the first to fire nukes, but that’s a fair price.
You ignore the other option in current criticisms of Biden. No, I don’t want Trump to win, but it sure would be nice if Biden listened to criticism and stopped his current, weak “I told Netanyahu, ‘Stop this, bub, or I’m going to get really cross with you. Now, listen here, I mean it this time!’” enablement of the genocide Israel is carrying out. He’s apparently able to listen voters on stuff like not banning menthol cigarettes for fear of alienating black voters due to black smokers predominantly smoking menthols, yet when younger and more left-wing voters ask “Could you please stop fast-tracking Israel’s ability to commit genocide so I can vote for you with a clean conscience?” the response is apparently, “Lol, get fucked.”
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him. He can cave to pressure from a fraction of the African American population that smokes over something that will actively help kill them, but is seemingly committed to ignoring young voters across demographic groups to enable something that systematically murders innocent people, makes the US complicit in crimes against humanity and offers literally no tangible benefit to the US, but could get him some more of that sweet AIPAC money.
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him.
It’s funny how little people believe in democracy whilst simultaneously claiming that their vote is too important to cast for an immoral cause.
If Biden loses, it is on all of us. If Trump wins, it is on all of us. If Biden wins, likewise, it is on all of us.
That’s the cost of living in a somewhat-democratic fucking society. As much as some would love to have a king or a fuhrer or some friendly neighborhood oligarchs they could knuckle under and point to and say, “God help me, it wasn’t me, it was all them!”, it’s not fucking there yet. And anyone with an ounce of fucking morality in them will fight to prevent it.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue? Exactly, this is entirely on Biden. You can make all the excuses you want, for anyone whose eyes aren’t painted on, it’s obvious what’s going on.
Young voters turned out in record numbers in the last election, and they favored Biden by far, helping him win. But sure, Biden can turn his back on these voters, he did win by such a comfortable margin last time that he has no reason to be worried. He has nothing to gain by doubling down on his stance on Israel, and everything to lose.
I’ve seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don’t vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue?
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he’s doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
I’ve seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don’t vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
He’s in a lose-lose situation. Either way he loses votes, unless the anti-Israel sentiment accelerates even more. My opinion is that in a lose-lose situation, you should take the moral loss and not the immoral one - so I’m entirely in favor of cutting Israel off.
But if Biden doesn’t change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he’s still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it’s one of those two old fucks that’s going to be president.
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he’s doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
If young voters don’t turn out for him in similar numbers as they did the last election, he’s likely lost anyway. He’s running a campaign on a knife edge, and alienating a demographic that was essential for his last win, which is a dumb move. Support for Israel tracks heavily with age, which coincidentally, tracks pretty decently with the likelihood to vote Republican, so there’s a good portion of this block that were never going to vote for him to begin with.
But if Biden doesn’t change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he’s still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it’s one of those two old fucks that’s going to be president.
No, it’s just competing on degrees of awfulness. This is like saying you’re going to fall victim to one of two murders; the first one will flay you alive and let you die of infections once they set in, while the second will shoot you 3 times in the face and make sure you’re dead within ten minutes. You’re arguing the first one is better because they prolong the agony, but the outcome is the same either way.
I’ll just go comment in the forum where Biden hangs out because that’s totally a thing /s
I just love how “leftists” accuse others of not taking fascism seriously enough and then post shit like this when the opportunity to put up actually presents itself.
When Fascists Vote, Not Voting is Collaboration.
That’s not a platitude, that’s basic math, and it’s true even under a not absolutely fucked FPTP system like what we’re stuck with right now, let alone with it.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
If you need more convincing than just being informed that the other candidate is a fascist running on a platform of doing fascism, you are a collaborator.
If ten people are at a table and a Nazi can sit down at that table unchallenged, there are eleven Nazis at that table.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
I’m voting against it. To be clear, that means a vote for Biden.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, and you should stop pretending that opposition to genocide is support for Trump.
Look, in past elections we didn’t have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does. I think what has happened, and is continuing to happen, to those in Gaza is gut wrenching. As a father of a 4-year-old, I would be mentally eviscerated if I lost him. I would probably go from “father” to “extremist” in that instance, too.
It’s hard for me to vote for Biden knowing his support for the state of Israel. I also know I want to be able to vote in the future. I want women to have bodily autonomy. I want marginalized groups to exist and not have their very existence removed from the vernacular. I want the government to remain an agnostic-ish state. I want our allies to stay allies (except for maybe the state of Israel) and our enemies to stay enemies.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn’t so.
Look, in past elections we didn’t have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does.
I already said I’m voting for Biden. I don’t need to be lectured into doing something I already said I’m gonna do.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn’t so.
Biden circumvented congress to provide weapons that he knew would be used for genocide.
If withdrawing his support won’t do anything, we aided a genocide for no reason other than Biden really fucking wanted to. If it will do something, his continued support makes the genocide possible. I do not buy any argument in favor of continuing support for genocide, because there is no good reason for genocide.
Expecting me to buy the “he isn’t a king” line when he acted by himself without congress in order to sell Netanyahu weapons when he didn’t have to is insulting.
Biden also supports Israel.
Found the genocide supporter.
I’ll be nice and assume you’re just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
You just go around spamming the same comment? When you vote for Biden the blood is now on your hands too.
Why not you just go around spamming the same nebulistic nonsense, without providing any actionable advice and promoting voter apathy. As far as I’m concerned you’re a big part of the problem.
Why should they change their comment when the comment remains correct and unsuccessfully assailed?
They’re repeating the comment because it’s still right. This is called consistent messaging
Voting does make you complicit in the things the candidate has said they will do. For example, if the candidate says “I will get rid of abortion” then voting for them means you are partially responsible if they actually do get rid of abortion. Or if they say “I will kill all the gays” or “I will lock up all non-Christians” then don’t act all surprised pikachu face when it happens.
It’s not a blood pact, but it’s not a football game either where you’re just rooting for your team. You have to weigh the consequences of casting a vote for someone and decide if you can live with the possible outcomes and/or pick the lesser of two evils.
If you don’t pick the lesser of two evils, you’re saying you’re okay with the greater.
Man, the famed revolutionary Robespierre once said, “To rule innocently is insanity.” He was wrong about numerous other things, but he fucking nailed that on the head. There are no good decisions in positions of power. If you fail oh-so-nobly, the nobility of your fall and refusal to compromise with your ideals isn’t going to save a single goddamn person, and there’s a good goddamn chance it’ll kill many, many more. Every decision has costs in the lives of innocent people, and there is no abstention from that that is anything more than giving license to the currently-occurring trends happening.
In a democracy, we share power. The more democratic the society, the more power is shared - and the power that is shared also comes with responsibility for what that power does. The modern US is less democratic than it should be, but it’s much more democratic than pre-Enlightenment societies - or prior incarnations of the US, for that matter. We all have blood on our hands, because we all have a share of the decision-making power.
We must choose the option that improves things to most - or damages things the least - to the best of our ability, whether in voting, organizing, protesting; all of it. And abrogation of that decision-making responsibility in any area is not abrogation of guilt; it is acceptance of the worse of the results.
I think the best analogy I’ve heard had compared voting to transportation. If you’re at the office and want to go home, there probably isn’t a train that goes directly to your front door. So you get on the train heading in the right direction, and maybe at the end of that line you still need to take a bus and walk a couple blocks, but that’s how you ultimately get where you want to go. Otherwise you’re going to be in the same spot waiting for a perfect train that’s not coming.
So you get on the train heading in the right direction
This assumes any trains will get you closer to your destination.
BoTh SiDeS AlL dAY
If Biden stopped supporting genocide, you would board the other train.
Yeah this is what I called out in my other comment. The pathetically stupid idea that anyone not simping for trump loves genocide
I’m voting for Biden. I get that you want to cast any opposition to genocide as simping for your close second choice, but it ain’t so.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, even if though that will lose him your vote.
this person describes it better than me:
Goddamn, that last paragraph speaks to me. I grew up in a little purple oasis surrounded by a desert of deep, deep red, and the idea that there are all these people just WAITING for a REAL LEFTIST to come along, whose ideas they’d all agree with and overwhelmingly vote for, because they only vote GOP because they don’t believe Dems are GENUINE about SUPPORTING THE WORKERS is just…
… neither my experience nor supported by polling, nor supported by electoral results.
A lot of people have dogshit beliefs. A lot of work has to be done before they’d even consider voting for someone other than the fucking fascist party.
It’s the end result of leftists circling the drain in ever-tighter bubbles after a decade of ostracizing anyone not pure enough in their beliefs. At their core, a lot of leftists are convinced that moderates don’t exist, much less that they’re the vast majority of people.
That resonates so well. Wish I had it when I was arguing with some idiot who was claiming that voting can’t accomplish anything ever.
I blocked them after a while so I can’t get their username, but if you check my latest comments you’ll see them.
Voting does sort of make you complicit, honestly.
But guess what? Not voting also makes you complicit. So does voting in a way that has no chance of having an effect based on the current rules.
Basically, existing as an eligible voter, at least in a country where voting isn’t rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example) makes you complicit in your government’s actions.
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
And if you don’t like that responsibility, I get it, I totally sympathize, because I agree. I hate that responsibility, especially cause I know damn well I’m not qualified to make those decisions. But I still am responsible, and pretending I’m not doesn’t change that.
eh, im with you but i dont really like the overapplication of the word complicit.
i much prefer the model that we are a bunch of individuals doing our best to organize against systematic murder. but yes thank you for your corroborating comment :)
Not voting also makes you complicit
What if I vote for someone you don’t like, though? Say, by endorsing a third party or spoiling the ballot with a write in?
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
Police officer bludgeoning student protestor with a truncheon
“WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, CITIZEN!”
at least in a country where voting isn’t rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example)
So we’re all off the hook, then?
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society
You don’t live in a democratic society.
Everywhere on the internet is America
Everywhere
Tell me where you live and I’ll show you how anti-democratic the society you live in really is.
Up for this challenge?
I’m curious. Please (Unironically) tell me about the anti-democratic nature of germany.
the anti-democratic nature of germany.
Gee… what a challenge! I’m going to be completely stumped by this one, eh?
But just before I do the little surrender dance, we have to… you know - dot the i’s and get the paperwork right, okay?
You did get to vote on who it is that manages you at your job, right?
What a terrible way of avoiding the question.
Oh, not at all.
We are absolutely getting to the heart of the matter… and no amount of liberal pearl-clutching is going to change that.
I take it the answer is a definite no?
Whenever people express the sentiment that we need Biden to put his foot down on genocide I’m always for it.
But then when you ask them what they want to do it always becomes some nebulous Republican rhetoric about how Trump’s not that bad.
Yes we need the genocide to stop, Trump will not accomplish that, he will make it worse.
We can pressure Congress and continue to protest because it needs to stop.
The past eight years have been such a strong argument for ranked choice voting.
yep. either the nebulous version or its evil unveiled sibling “well maybe leftists will mobilize more if we let another maga win happen/voting is about holding them accountable so let’s fire brandon 🤓”
mfs out here acting like the overton window doesn’t exist
What the actual fuck? They are pretty clear what they want. ONE we stop giving weapons to isreal. TWO we stop getting in the way of a cease fire. THREE we start giving humanitarian aid to trapped Palestinians. FOUR we cooperate with The Hague on what evidence we have on isreal war crimes.
These are things we could do without much effort that would have immediate impact on both stopping the genocide and boosting his numbers.
I get we want “our strategic ally in the Middle East” but maybe if we stop doing all the war crimes and genocide we wouldn’t need to write a blank check to Israel every-time they run out of genocide juice. If our status as an ally to isreal is contingent on what we are doing, we are not an ally we are being used.
It seems this thread pops up every time Fox News talks about Biden’s slipping numbers. The disillusionment of the left is real. And calling them out and saying “but trump!” Is not going to convince them, it’s not like they forgot.
If they complain about Biden being complicit in genocide. Now the time to do it. And it’s up to them if they follow through with their threat, and it’s up to Biden if he’s willing to risk it
I’m not asking what Biden could do, I’m very clear on what he could do.
What I’m saying is what we as individuals could do to pressure them realistically.
You’re failing to recognize the inherent biases of the voting system, we all know that our system favors a two party outcome. Which is to say it’s a statistical improbability for anyone except for the two most popular parties to win.
This isn’t just my opinion this is well known statistical fact with many years to back it up.
This puts us in the awkward place of choosing the least bad candidate, Obviously pressuring Biden isn’t working and I’m not happy about it.
But when we consider our vote we have to consider more than just the situation in the middle East, something that the Republicans don’t even want to fix.
That’s why I think it would be better to pressure Congress and to push for ranked choice voting and to continue to protest.
Because at least rank choice voting would allow us to vote for a better option rather than the least bad option.
You fell into the same trap, no actionable advice to the individual.
You will never, short of a violent revolution, EVER get Congress to pass ranked choice voting. That would dilute both parties power. Preventing you from having a meaningful choice is the only true bipartisan effort. And democrats have already said they would veto any primary vote on candidate when they wish. And have stood in the way of states enacting ranked choice voting on a state level.
Also you might convince accelerationists to not follow through with the threat of not voting or voting trump. But unfortunately that is probably the smallest fraction of those disillusioned. Most normally never vote, and a bunch feel the system is broken and feel betrayed by Biden. It takes effort to get these voters, and Biden has unfortunately done less then nothing. Well other then holding excusing college debt over peoples heads to enact piece meal whenever his number take a dip.
Truly Biden has to do something to galvanize his base, because it’s looking grim
You might be right, Biden could very well lose. It’s an important issue he has not taken enough action on.
Reactionairies and single issue voters are a part of every political system, problem is that the opposition is status quo.
My only issue is that a large part of our base here on Lemmy who should know better than to promote apathy and accelerationism
To be clear I don’t necessarily blame them it’s hard to be pragmatic in times like these but things can always get worse and if we’re not careful they will.
I’m even up for a violent revolution. What I’m not up for is an apathetic slide.
Its a very hard pill to swallow when on one hand Biden is supporting genocide by giving weapons to Israel, on the other hand we are dragging our feet on giving weapons to Ukraine and Biden seems to not be bothered. And in the most pragmatic terms, Ukraine is fighting the world’s most successful proxy war against our direct enemy. That started to lose ground once we started withholding our support. And on the third hand Biden is supporting big oil when he promised to not do that.
On top of all that, i know that if Biden remains as president the next election cycle will have another trump, and it will again be “we can’t campaign on your interests! Its an election year with the literal incarnation of evil”! And we will continue to shift the Overton window rightward.
These posts resonate with me because i wake everyday and question if i should still vote for Biden. And these posts do not make it easy to say yes.
He’s been pro-giving weapons to Ukraine Congress had dragged their feet but that’s not the point.
You should vote whoever best represents your interests. If no candidate does then find the next best option.
If you want to start a violent revolution in support of Ukraine, Palatine, more aggressive environmental targets etc. I’ll be the first in line but I will never condone reactionary voting/apathy. All it does is make the system worse.
I appreciate that. But bread and circuses still hold more sway than the need for change. And just to be clear. A vote for Biden is still apathy, just a slower decline than the Republican flavor. I see no way to vote ourselves out of this tantrum spiral we are in.
When Fox News does another gloating over Biden’s further slipping numbers, let’s skip the part where we blame the disenfranchised voters, yea?
I get we want “our strategic ally in the Middle East”
Oh absolutely. Can’t risk Egypt setting market rates on Suez Traffic. We’ll support endless genocide to prevent that.
But then when you ask them what they want to do it always becomes some nebulous Republican rhetoric about how Trump’s not that bad.
I tend to see “we need to pull Biden to the left” pitched as a solution, right up until it means doing anything to impede Biden’s political agenda.
Don’t vote for him? You’re MAGA.
Don’t donate to him? You’re MAGA.
Don’t block walk for him? You’re MAGA.
Say anything critical of him on the Internet? Russian Bot Chinese Wumao Republican Traitor Why Do You Hate America?!
I saw the same thing from Republicans in 2004. “We’re at war so any kind of dissent means you’re with the terrorists!”
And it worked for Bush. He got another four years out of the hysteria. Maybe it’ll work for Biden, too.
I don’t think anyone here is equating not voting for Biden to being a Trumpet but due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote so you have to decide your best option whatever that may be.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine and worse policies on a lot of others.
I’m not a fan of this “least bad option” we’ve got ourselves into either but to equate the two parties or to deny the reality before us is how we allow it to get worse.
I’ve finally trained my brain to jump to the bottom two panels of that format!
i don’t really like this format either lol sorry about that 🥲
That’s why I always vote for Satan.
Fucking brilliant.
literally Labour and Liberal in Australia, people have such little critical thinking skills that almost everyone i know either votes for one of the two, either its for welfare or for “freedom!”, nothing else ever. no wonder we have policies most genuinely disagree with…
Nuance is about subtlety. Nothing here is subtle.
There are clear differences between destroying the planet by eating meat and driving a car and supporting the guy with Mein Kampf on his nightstand who publically Idealizes Dictators.
I have a feeling that the people who upvote this meme hate “trump voters” because of their complicity.
The difference is that Trump’s supporters actively supported his administration, and have been working to push him even further right. Biden doesn’t have the kind of cult of personality and worship Trump has, people willing to storm the capitol to keep him in power, against the democratic will of the people.
I thought of a few ways to respond to this, but I think I’ll just let your comment stand as-is. It’s a good encapsulation of the mindset, thanks.
I do think there’s a nuance to “I voted for this guy, I don’t really want him but it’s the best option on the list” And “I like this guy, I liked what he did, I’d like to see him do it again”
I hear (in real life), absolutely 0 Biden supporters like example #2. I hear (in real life) about 10 trump supporters like #2. Of the people I ask who are Republicans that don’t fall into #2, they instead say something along the lines of “I don’t like abortion and I don’t think democrats are protecting my rights”. Of the Republicans I’ve met that I talk to on a semi regular basis, those people make up maybe 20% of all interactions I have. The rest…well, MAGA
Voters are not complicit in individual policies, but they are complicit in the broad differences in outcomes that are easily predicted. Trump is, by any sane metric, the greater evil by far, so Trump voters are complicit in bringing more evil to the world.
The choice to vote for a viable candidate rather than a non-viable one doesn’t make anyone complicit in an outcome they couldn’t realistically vote to prevent. Anyone who thinks a candidate other than Biden or Trump can win in November is delusional.
Fundementally it’s perfectly valid to take a position that a system is so irredeemable that you cannot participate, but instead believe it must be torn down instead of adding legitimatecy to it. Sometimes that protest achieves something and sometimes it doesn’t. It is a kantian ethics stance that you’d have to work a lot harder to invalidate than the cursory anger that folks spew out on Lemmy.
If a vote acknowledges the legitimacy in someone’s view of a genocidal government, I think it’s fine for them to protest against it. I’m not personally of that stance, but I don’t doubt many have sincerely held beliefs.
Ah yes, my concerted effort to win trump votes through the vast reach of… lemmy.
wow i was like, ‘damn did orwell really write this dumbass quote’? then i did the bare minimum of research
welcome to my blocklist. this post is really weeding out the worst of you trolls. im terrified and angry.
So, funny story…
Also, Orwell was literally a cop serving the British occupation of Myanmar.
If he was familiar with corrupt politicians, theiving, and traitors, it was through very first hand experience.
This would be true-ish if there wasn’t a huge power imbalance and the massively powerful government didn’t manipulate the voters each with a tiny spec of power.
Tell yourself you’re nuanced all you want, there is no justification for supporting genocide. And it certainly doesn’t give you the right to talk down to others as if you are moral or “know better”.
The only opinion I can come to about the conflict is “God this is all so fucked that it shuts me down mentally”
The hell it doesn’t. You’re being spoiled children, so we talk to you like you’re being spoiled children.
I’m “spoiled” for being unwilling to support genocide…
Jesus, do you people ever listen to yourselves? Like, go ahead and say that aloud to yourself “Refusing to support genocide is spoiled”. Sit with it a second and really mull over what kind of person says that kind of thing.
Talking down is literally the only rhetorical trick you have, because you know you have no morally defensible position.
because you know you have no morally defensible position.
There is no morally defensible position at all. That’s fucking life sometimes.
You would understand this if you weren’t a spoiled child.
You have blood on your hands no matter what choice you make. Thinking you can sit it out and have your conscience be clean is what’s childish. If Trump is elected, and kills more Gazans even faster, and sanctions the killing of more gay and trans people, that blood is on your hands for standing by and letting it happen.
Grow the fuck up and choose the option for less blood.
When the American Empire implodes (hopefully soon) and a thousand years pass and an enlightened civilization is looking back on us with all your “nuance” weathered down, I don’t want my name to be thrown on a list of people who voted for genocide. No democracy worth saving would’ve ever had its most important vote of our lifetimes ever for the fate of the world come down to Vanilla or Orange Sherbet flavored fascism. We are at the logical end of the American Experiment.
Well, if I were a betting woman, I’d say your name isn’t going to be remembered at all, so you can probably safely stop using that as an excuse for apathy.
I’d say your name isn’t going to be remembered at all,
Great! Yours will be remembered for generations as the lady who voted for the genocide of brown kids across the world :)
Whereas you enabled the genocide of even more kids all across the world, as well as minorities here at home. How moral.
Leaving aside the fact that you seem to think historians will care about individual voters, this election is, unfortunately, about more than Israel. It’s also about LGBTQ+ people, women, the environment, Ukraine, and not having a rapist thief who has admitted to ambitions of dictatorship in office. So if voting makes you complicit in every single thing a politician does, then sitting idly by and not caring if Trump wins would put a lot of blood on your hands, in the US and abroad, including in Gaza. Your smug superiority does nothing to protect those people and may harm a lot of others.
Cool, your name will be thrown on a list of people who enabled even more genocide than those who voted for less genocide. Thanks for having more blood on your hands, I guess.
Inaction isn’t action. Stop trying to force your guilty conscience on me. Every Palestinian killed by by Israel was murdered with the full support and backing of the president we both (presumably) voted for in 2020, where we seem to differ is that I’m not going to have that blood on my hands when that genocider wants to ask for a fucking second turn at office.
genuinely asking here as im trying to understand our differences: if trump gets another win then does exactly as he promised and basically nukes millions of palestineans, you won’t feel any guilt at all for allowing this to come about unchecked?
and yet you would feel the full burden of guilt if a lesser degree of murder came from biden?
like do you see the irony here? inaction is action. you are watching a burning wreck and choosing to stand by from my perspective.
Inaction isn’t action
Unless you’re dead, choosing not to vote is an action. Don’t deny your own agency.
That might explain why suicide rates are at all time highs.
Also it’s a bit ridiculous to be discussing the agency of a single individual voter in a post that sweeps Biden’s agency under the rug. I’ll happily accept my silver of responsibility as long as Biden gets a dump truck of responsibility.
Okay. Your state goes for Trump by a margin of one vote, for the sake of the argument. You and a comrade who refused to vote for that demon Joe Biden were the difference, and the state’s electoral votes are enough to narrowly swing the election to Trump.
In this admittedly extreme scenario, would you and your friend bear responsibility for Trump then giving full shift to the Israelis to complete their genocide as well as murdering numerous minorities in the US and empowering authoritarian regimes abroad, including the genocide in Ukraine?
Or do you think that having the power to do something, and intentionally doing nothing, is some form of innocence?
But you should vote again because “orange man bad” and maybe this time the self proclaimed non-Jewish Zionist whose pockets are lined by Israili money won’t commit genocide.
You know it’s actually funny at this point. All of these people can go outside and find a protest. They’re all over the country. Instead they’re over here trying to guilt shame others into voting for a genocidal zionist. You wanna know why? It’s because they don’t care. That’s what it all comes down to. Either through Israili propaganda or just through blatant racism they are convinced that the massacre is somewhat acceptable or at least not completely unacceptable. Therefore voting for Biden is still a viable option.
Exactly as you have said. My vote counts. Even if it doesn’t make a difference. I would know. Every time a child dies in Gaza, I would know that I voted for this.
Expecting anything to change by voting for the same people is dumb as fuck. I’m expected to choose between a genocidal maniac and a fascist and somehow the dumbasses here think that they can “lesser evil” their way out of this.
Exactly as you have said. My vote counts. Even if it doesn’t make a difference. I would know. Every time a child dies in Gaza, I would know that I voted for this.
Cool, now when Israel annexes the West Bank and finishes the genocide with US jets flying sorties on Palestinian civilians, you can rest easy knowing that you supported that by sitting on your hands while a fascist took over your country.
Do you actually think Biden is better than Trump in any of this? He’s the sitting president right now watching the genocide and we’re sending them more money. You’re making up hypothetical scenarios when what’s happening is real. WHAT YOU’RE DESCRIBING IS HAPPENING RIGHT FUCKING NOW DURING BIDEN’S TERM.
Even in your stupid scenario I wouldn’t care since I wouldn’t vote for Trump. I’m not the one who put Biden in the ballot and I’m not the one insisting that he should be the candidate.
You reap what you sow. Did you protest against the genocide? No. Did you boycott any companies? No. Did you donate to any supporting cause (Jewish voice for peace etc.)? No. Did you contact your elected officials about this? No.
You could have helped stop this. You could still help stop this. But you don’t. Instead you come here and try to guilt shame people with hypothetical scenarios when they’re happening as we speak.
It all goes back to what I have said. You just don’t care. So stop acting like you give a shit about Palestine. If a democracy wants me to choose between two genocidal maniacs, I’ll enjoy watching it burn.
Do you actually think Biden is better than Trump in any of this?
… yes? Do… do you think Biden is worse than Trump on this, Trump, who has openly express support for the genocide of the Palestinians and a desire to increase assistance to Israel? Trump, whose inflammatory pro-Israel actions exacerbated this very conflict during his term? Trump, who broke even with prior Republican norms of restraint in support of Israel? Trump, who claimed that Jews who vote against Israeli interests are race traitors?
Are you fucking serious?
Even in your stupid scenario I wouldn’t care
Okay, great, so you don’t actually care about the deaths of millions of Palestinians. Thanks for admitting it. Good talk.
You reap what you sow. Did you protest against the genocide? No. Did you boycott any companies? No. Did you donate to any supporting cause (Jewish voice for peace etc.)? No. Did you contact your elected officials about this? No.
This is intentionally deaf of you. I have protested genocide. I have participated in boycotts and advocated for divestment and sanctions. I have donated to supporting causes. I have contacted my elected officials. I have participated in the uncommitted movement to send a message direct to Biden.
One incredibly tiny portion of my action in support for Palestine will happen to be my vote to the presidential candidate who will commit less violence. Just one tiny piece to save lives.
But you won’t hear that will you? Your mind is totally made up. You’re not here to listen, but to cuss people out.
Do some interrospection. Have a good one.
If my vote doesn’t influence the outcome of a genocide then I’m not sure what kind of responsibility a historian would actually place on me.
“Well a president in a democratic system willfully went against the interests of the voters while warning them that the other guy was worse. Biden was simply a victim in all of this and those truly responsible for the downfall of the United States were a handful of voters.”
Hard for me to imagine anybody writing that and being taken seriously.
Do you actually think Biden is better than Trump in any of this?
Yes. A thousand times yes. How can anyone be so ignorant as to not think that?
Because liberals and centerists are liars.
uninformed take. i protest and vote. 😇😇😇😇
You protest where it makes no difference.
blocked, nasty troll.
