Upvoted because I’m happy you’re right. Biden will lose to the orange criminal if he doesn’t stand up and stop money and weapons to Israel. America is fucked if it keeps supporting Israel.
I think you’re overestimating how many voters are deeply against Israel’s assault on Palestine, while also underestimating the ability of those virtuous people to understand the landslide of harmful outcomes that would come with another trump presidency.
Trump won without the popular vote. He won Michigan by ~10,000 votes in 2016. I’m not the one who decided this system, but this system doesn’t give a shit about the majority. It doesn’t take much to sway the balance.
Yeah I mean I could have qualified my statement better but you know if they are voters, and they go to the polls, and Palestine is on their mind instead of domestic matters, they’re not going to pick the other guy.
Even if you could ever provide evidence to back up your claim, which, historically, you never could, protest voters always signify a tiny block of voters, none of whom could ever hope to sway any kind of national election vote. Your point is moot.
I’m only confused because I can’t understand the conflict between the two statements. I certainly don’t disagree with your second paragraph.
If you think he was saying the protesters will not vote for Biden, I kind of understand your point but that is also part of why Biden may be making the changes he is, which means again that you are both right - assuming the protesters decide Biden is worth voting for.
Well, it was an admittedly flippant comment done in passing in an effort to highlight the fact that regardless of any perceived proximal effect, protesters are still part of the electorate. What’s more though, is the effect the protest has on opinions of the wider electorate, which is where I would wager we move from a protest vote and into the area where major change can occur.
Well some protests. Did anything really happen at all after the BLM protests? Cops are still able to get away with murder and have very little oversight.
The BLM protests did work, they exposed that the US is a violent police state where voting doesn’t actually do anything to change whether we live in a violent police state because both the Republicans and centrist Democrats will collaborate as much as needed to betray their voters in order to sustain the system of policing and prisons.
The fact that in the wake of George Floyd a lot of cities and municipalities actually went more draconian with their policing laws in backlash is only an indicator of a failure of the BLM protests if you don’t look closer, step closer and you see the truth is far scarier, the BLM protests did massively change the psyche of America, it’s just that actually has no effect upon policy making because democracy is so broken in the US to the extreme point where many city governments chose to actively do their opposite of the will of the people as a show of force and a chilling warning to leftists.
I’m mostly with you, but if I tried to exercise and my legs broke, it’d be kinda wild to say the exercising “worked” because it exposed my shitty, unhealthy knees
That said, I’m all for changing up the narrative and using practical propaganda to expand support for protesters!
It depends on what kind of effect you’re expecting. Did the US state and federal governments suddenly defund the police and start sending reparations to black Americans? No, not exactly. But Derek Chauvin was convicted and sent to prison for 20+ years. Different municipalities did reform their police departments and even implemented things like unarmed crisis response units. BLM has helped introduce policy discussions that would not otherwise be on the table.
The effects of a protest aren’t always direct or immediate, their benefit is as much about changing the national narrative on any given issue than it is just achieving a primary goal by the time the protesrs end, and also it’s a way to learn what’s effective and what’s not.
For example, part of why these recent protests were effective and why they illicited such a desperate response from authorities and the media is because the young people looked at the failed tactics from protests like the Occupy movement and adapted.
One if the weaknesses of Occupy was that there was no unified voice, instead the media would walk up and find some random individual, get them to make some unflattering soundbyte and then put that on blast on their networks. By contrast, the students anti-genocide protests designated a spokes person, and when the media approached random protestors they would just direct the media to that spokes person.
It’s really smart and that kind of tactical refinement is arguably a result of the failures of Occupy. It made it difficult for the media to fool the public as to what these protests are really about, and you see that born out in people’s growing awareness of how fucked up the situation in Gaza not only is right now, but has been for decades.
Protesting and social justice is iterative and experimental, it’s about making it more difficult to just continue with business as usual going forward.
I will vote for Biden when he genuinely stops the genocide, until that point I really don’t care what silly political posturing and shuffling around of bombs in warehouses and on logistics sheets Biden does. Even if we stop providing weapons right now of any kind, the entire apparatus of the IDF and indeed Israel itself is dependent on the US military industrial complex, the fact that Biden has not used that leverage to stop this genocide of Palestinians means he is complicit.
Genocide is my red line, and if Biden is going to be windy washy about coming back over that red line don’t blame people like me for not being satisfied.
I’m sure many people will tell you the same: not voting for Biden is the equivalent of voting for Trump. Play it out in your minds eye; explaining to your children why you voted for Trump.
It’s possible to be right about something (your take on the US complicity in Israel’s genocide") but also be completely wrong about how to stop it and the consequences of your response.
Because if you want the killing to stop sitting out an election or refusing to vote for Biden is not going to work out for you. You will be complicit in the killing of women, transgender people, brown people and more. Because - and I really don’t think I’m being hyperbolic here - those are the consequences of a Trump administration.
Far far worse is the simple fact that our chances of stopping Israel’s genocide go to zero under Trump. You think a Republican administration will stop it if you protest? At least with Biden you know it works and you know you can make a dent.
So you’ll do what instead? Vote for Trump? Not vote? Throw away your vote to a 3rd party? What a naive and dangerous viewpoint.
Sad to see your “red line” isn’t electing a dictator, because that’s what will happen if Trump wins. Spare me any twisted logic of how that’s not what would happen in your scenarios.
You’re the one making the extraordinary claim that this decision had ‘nothing’ to do with massive, nation-wide, broadly covered protests occurring in a hotly contested election year amongst a key demographic.
That’s just it though. Neither of us can point to a causal chain of events conclusively proving or disproving our belief.
The difference is, my belief is fully compatible with the mountain of circumstantial evidence mentioned in my above comment, whereas your belief requires one to completely ignore all of it.
So you’re going to look at a decision in the heat of an enormously momentous election year, made by a president who is running for reelection, amidst numerous, widespread, widely covered protests made largely by a demographic that is absolutely critical to this candidate-president winning said election…You’re going to look at all that and say it had ‘nothing to do’ with those same protests.
Not, ‘there were other factors’, nope, you confidently assert the protests had nothing to do with it and demand proof of a suggestion to the contrary.
Once again, check your tether.
You start distorting reality, and it gets tough to stop, by nature.
And saying it is a result of protests is a tough statement to back up especially considering that old leaders do this shit all the time without the need of protestors.
If it was a result of, good. Glad it worked. But saying it’s proof of- which is what I responded to, is disingenuous.
Additionally, these socialists bag on him constantly to the point that it’s damn near a propaganda campaign and then take credit for anything good that he does?
I am claiming a negative. I sad it protests did not cause his actions.
We don’t know what it was caused by, therefore one cannot claim it’s proof of anything.
What should have been said, was
“Maybe the protests helped nudge this into happening….” Or…
“Looks like maybe the protests worked!”
But disingenuously claiming this as a “w” by the same people that spend all day finding hit-piece articles to drag Biden through the mud is pretty shitty.
You don’t get to call someone out as the worst thing for America and then take credit for the good that they do.
Again, the only way you can accurately make that claim is with the knowledge of what did cause it.
So prove your claim that the thing that caused this was not the protests, but something else instead.
What should have been said, was
Agreed. And what you should have said was “There’s no evidence that the protests caused his actions.” But you didn’t, you instead made a falsifiable claim, and refuse to back it up with proof. Making you a hypocrite.
Proof that protest works.
Go ahead, downvote because you’re mad that I’m right.
Upvoted because I’m happy you’re right. Biden will lose to the orange criminal if he doesn’t stand up and stop money and weapons to Israel. America is fucked if it keeps supporting Israel.
I think you’re overestimating how many voters are deeply against Israel’s assault on Palestine, while also underestimating the ability of those virtuous people to understand the landslide of harmful outcomes that would come with another trump presidency.
Trump won without the popular vote. He won Michigan by ~10,000 votes in 2016. I’m not the one who decided this system, but this system doesn’t give a shit about the majority. It doesn’t take much to sway the balance.
Yeah but the Dems will always lose without the majority
Why is there a “but” in your statement? You’re effectively agreeing with my sentiment. The Democrats will indeed always lose without the majority.
Because I misunderstood where you were going with it
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
Yeah I mean I could have qualified my statement better but you know if they are voters, and they go to the polls, and Palestine is on their mind instead of domestic matters, they’re not going to pick the other guy.
Protesters vote…
Even if you could ever provide evidence to back up your claim, which, historically, you never could, protest voters always signify a tiny block of voters, none of whom could ever hope to sway any kind of national election vote. Your point is moot.
I’m so confused.
Aren’t you two agreeing with each other, that protests work and protestors vote?
A protest vote is something else entirely.
You are confused because you think that there is one solution that always works for every situation. There is not.
Every situation requires a nuanced and particular approach. This is again one of those times.
I’m only confused because I can’t understand the conflict between the two statements. I certainly don’t disagree with your second paragraph.
If you think he was saying the protesters will not vote for Biden, I kind of understand your point but that is also part of why Biden may be making the changes he is, which means again that you are both right - assuming the protesters decide Biden is worth voting for.
Removed by mod
That’s funny, I don’t remember them saying that part. My memory must be slipping.
Well, it was an admittedly flippant comment done in passing in an effort to highlight the fact that regardless of any perceived proximal effect, protesters are still part of the electorate. What’s more though, is the effect the protest has on opinions of the wider electorate, which is where I would wager we move from a protest vote and into the area where major change can occur.
we have to keep fighting back against this genocide
Well some protests. Did anything really happen at all after the BLM protests? Cops are still able to get away with murder and have very little oversight.
The BLM protests did work, they exposed that the US is a violent police state where voting doesn’t actually do anything to change whether we live in a violent police state because both the Republicans and centrist Democrats will collaborate as much as needed to betray their voters in order to sustain the system of policing and prisons.
The fact that in the wake of George Floyd a lot of cities and municipalities actually went more draconian with their policing laws in backlash is only an indicator of a failure of the BLM protests if you don’t look closer, step closer and you see the truth is far scarier, the BLM protests did massively change the psyche of America, it’s just that actually has no effect upon policy making because democracy is so broken in the US to the extreme point where many city governments chose to actively do their opposite of the will of the people as a show of force and a chilling warning to leftists.
I’m mostly with you, but if I tried to exercise and my legs broke, it’d be kinda wild to say the exercising “worked” because it exposed my shitty, unhealthy knees
That said, I’m all for changing up the narrative and using practical propaganda to expand support for protesters!
It depends on what kind of effect you’re expecting. Did the US state and federal governments suddenly defund the police and start sending reparations to black Americans? No, not exactly. But Derek Chauvin was convicted and sent to prison for 20+ years. Different municipalities did reform their police departments and even implemented things like unarmed crisis response units. BLM has helped introduce policy discussions that would not otherwise be on the table.
The effects of a protest aren’t always direct or immediate, their benefit is as much about changing the national narrative on any given issue than it is just achieving a primary goal by the time the protesrs end, and also it’s a way to learn what’s effective and what’s not.
For example, part of why these recent protests were effective and why they illicited such a desperate response from authorities and the media is because the young people looked at the failed tactics from protests like the Occupy movement and adapted.
One if the weaknesses of Occupy was that there was no unified voice, instead the media would walk up and find some random individual, get them to make some unflattering soundbyte and then put that on blast on their networks. By contrast, the students anti-genocide protests designated a spokes person, and when the media approached random protestors they would just direct the media to that spokes person.
It’s really smart and that kind of tactical refinement is arguably a result of the failures of Occupy. It made it difficult for the media to fool the public as to what these protests are really about, and you see that born out in people’s growing awareness of how fucked up the situation in Gaza not only is right now, but has been for decades.
Protesting and social justice is iterative and experimental, it’s about making it more difficult to just continue with business as usual going forward.
Ok, so will the protests stop now?
Has the genocide actually stopped or did Genocide Joe just move the goalposts?
I’m confused. The protests worked, right?
Could there be an entire election on the line here with the possibility of all this back firing?
Or are we just going to get ourselves more worked up?
And let’s be clear. Joe didn’t move the goal post, he ran right through the one Palestine supporters had erected.
(I’m not good at sports ball)
Has the genocide of Palestinians stopped?
I will vote for Biden when he genuinely stops the genocide, until that point I really don’t care what silly political posturing and shuffling around of bombs in warehouses and on logistics sheets Biden does. Even if we stop providing weapons right now of any kind, the entire apparatus of the IDF and indeed Israel itself is dependent on the US military industrial complex, the fact that Biden has not used that leverage to stop this genocide of Palestinians means he is complicit.
Genocide is my red line, and if Biden is going to be windy washy about coming back over that red line don’t blame people like me for not being satisfied.
I’m sure many people will tell you the same: not voting for Biden is the equivalent of voting for Trump. Play it out in your minds eye; explaining to your children why you voted for Trump.
It’s possible to be right about something (your take on the US complicity in Israel’s genocide") but also be completely wrong about how to stop it and the consequences of your response.
Because if you want the killing to stop sitting out an election or refusing to vote for Biden is not going to work out for you. You will be complicit in the killing of women, transgender people, brown people and more. Because - and I really don’t think I’m being hyperbolic here - those are the consequences of a Trump administration.
Far far worse is the simple fact that our chances of stopping Israel’s genocide go to zero under Trump. You think a Republican administration will stop it if you protest? At least with Biden you know it works and you know you can make a dent.
So you’ll do what instead? Vote for Trump? Not vote? Throw away your vote to a 3rd party? What a naive and dangerous viewpoint.
Sad to see your “red line” isn’t electing a dictator, because that’s what will happen if Trump wins. Spare me any twisted logic of how that’s not what would happen in your scenarios.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!!! COMING TO SAVE THE MOTHER FUCKING DAY, YEAH!
Classic.
This had nothing to do with the protests.
Yo check your tether, friend. Reality can get away from you quick.
He’s gonna start calling you a propagandist soon.
Mmmkay. Prove it.
You’re the one making the extraordinary claim that this decision had ‘nothing’ to do with massive, nation-wide, broadly covered protests occurring in a hotly contested election year amongst a key demographic.
So, prove it.
Ahh. So when one person makes a claim that’s unproven, but you believe it- the onus is on the person that asks it to be proven to prove it isn’t?
Sorry, but that’s not how it works…
There is zero evidence to support the statement that this has anything to do with protests. ZERO. you cannot prove it.
I’ll save us both a lot of frustration and wasted time and simply refer you back to my first comment.
I’ll also save us both a lot of frustration and wasted time and simply refer you back to my first comment.
That’s just it though. Neither of us can point to a causal chain of events conclusively proving or disproving our belief.
The difference is, my belief is fully compatible with the mountain of circumstantial evidence mentioned in my above comment, whereas your belief requires one to completely ignore all of it.
So you’re going to look at a decision in the heat of an enormously momentous election year, made by a president who is running for reelection, amidst numerous, widespread, widely covered protests made largely by a demographic that is absolutely critical to this candidate-president winning said election…You’re going to look at all that and say it had ‘nothing to do’ with those same protests.
Not, ‘there were other factors’, nope, you confidently assert the protests had nothing to do with it and demand proof of a suggestion to the contrary.
Once again, check your tether.
You start distorting reality, and it gets tough to stop, by nature.
You sure are dumb. You’ve provided enough evidence for that to be fact.
Dumb for disagreeing with something you like? Do you insult everyone that disagrees with you?
I wonder if there’s a way to describe that……
Hmmmm….
Can’t prove a negative. Prove it was a result of protests. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Also… I asked first.
I’ll be waiting.
Nobody asked you to.
No, you didn’t.
You said “proof that protests work”
Where is the proof. Provide it.
you said:
Where is the proof. Provide it.
I asked first…
Can’t prove a negative. You should prove that protests cause this. Provide it or walk away.
Nobody asked you to.
You should prove that This had nothing to do with the protests… Provide it or walk away.
Would you like protests to stop?
Of course he would. They work.
That’s a tough statement to back up. Especially considering the scale of the protests, and Biden’s refusal to speak against isreal until this point.
And saying it is a result of protests is a tough statement to back up especially considering that old leaders do this shit all the time without the need of protestors.
If it was a result of, good. Glad it worked. But saying it’s proof of- which is what I responded to, is disingenuous.
Additionally, these socialists bag on him constantly to the point that it’s damn near a propaganda campaign and then take credit for anything good that he does?
Seriously???
Prove it
You aren’t claiming a negative.
Logically, it was caused by something. You are claiming that the something that caused it was not the protests.
The only way you can accurately make that claim is with the knowledge of what did cause it.
So prove your claim that the thing that caused this was not the protests, but something else instead.
If you don’t do that, you’re admitting to arguing in bad faith.
I am claiming a negative. I sad it protests did not cause his actions.
We don’t know what it was caused by, therefore one cannot claim it’s proof of anything.
What should have been said, was
“Maybe the protests helped nudge this into happening….” Or…
“Looks like maybe the protests worked!”
But disingenuously claiming this as a “w” by the same people that spend all day finding hit-piece articles to drag Biden through the mud is pretty shitty.
You don’t get to call someone out as the worst thing for America and then take credit for the good that they do.
I’m done with this discussion.
Again, the only way you can accurately make that claim is with the knowledge of what did cause it.
So prove your claim that the thing that caused this was not the protests, but something else instead.
Agreed. And what you should have said was “There’s no evidence that the protests caused his actions.” But you didn’t, you instead made a falsifiable claim, and refuse to back it up with proof. Making you a hypocrite.
Better luck next time, then.
What caused it?