That’s called brandishing, and it’s usually a crime.
Yeah and if there is no brandishing law in Indiana this could be viewed as possible assault. (Offen assault is the threat of violence, battery is the action of violence)
No, that’s not how it works. Merely showing someone a gun is not “brandishing”. A very simple example demonstrates how silly your claim is. Gun stores exist and involve the employee handling and showing people many guns. No one would call that “brandishing”.
https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/1007
You’re missing the point. Its not the display that is brandishing, it is display with intent to intimidate.
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That’s for a jury to decide.
Do
I’m pretty sure you’re missing the point. Like your link says, simply showing someone a weapon is not brandishing. There has to be an intent to intimidate. The video of this interaction makes it plainly obvious that there was no intention on the part of this politician to intimidate anyone.
edit
All that said, your link isn’t relevant to this situation anyway. The definition of brandishing is mentioned specifically in the context of someone who possesses a weapon “during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime”. (see 18 USC 924(c)(1) and (c)(4)). This guy was not in the middle of committing a crime of violence or drug trafficking, thus the brandishing definition does not apply.
assault, menacing, intimidation, all crimes that involve the threat of violence.
If I walk into a gun store a reasonable person would conclude that I consent to see guns. If I express an opinion about the government to my elected official a reasonable person would not conclude that I consented to be shown a gun.
It isn’t the action alone, it is the context, and the context includes consent.
You’re right, your example isn’t a demonstration of brandishing. But it also has nothing to do with what the article describes.
Let’s use knives instead. If you’re bothering me on the street, and I flash a large knife at you in response, what would be your interpretation of that gesture? Am I just getting my knife some air? Am I inviting you back to mine for a night cap? Or am I telling you to back off because I have a weapon?
That’s not a particularly relevant example. If you and I were having a discussion about one’s right to self-defense, and I ask you “like by carrying a knife”, and you say “yes, in fact I’m carrying a knife right now” and you show me, I’m not going to feel threatened. (Which is actually exactly what happened in this instance.)
What does showing the knife accomplish in this example?
I assume to emphasize the point about having a weapon to defend oneself. You don’t have to agree with that point, but you don’t get to automatically jump to it being some kind of threat.
Don’t drag us knife owners into it. Mine is a tool for cutting things, a gun has no useful purpose (outside a range). A tool can be misused but a gun’s primary purpose is to make living things dead.
You’ve lived a sheltered and privileged life if you think there is no useful purpose in a tool which has the primary purpose of making living things dead.
I mean, I kinda get where you’re coming from. Though I’ll say I could take that to an extreme to show how flawed it is.
I will say however, when someone is actively saying “we want knife control, things are unsafe if everyone is just walking around with knives” and someone else goes “what are you talking about I have this knife right here” it does have a bit more sinister a vibe in my mind.
“emotional support firearms”
The federal term for this is “brandishing” and while that isn’t specifically listed in Indiana state laws, intimidation is illegal.
After watching the video, I don’t know that I’d say he was showing them the gun to be intimidating. Quite the opposite, it made him look cowary and small. I can understand why the students felt uncomfortable, but I don’t know that a prosecutor could make the case for intimidation.
I got stopped by plainclothes cops one time and I wasn’t even sure if they were really cops, and one guy said “yeah, here’s my badge and this is my gun” and showed me. I was just oh, okay, but it came up in court, and the issue was it could be seen as intimidating (the cop lied and said it didn’t happen!).
All the cop had to do was show their badge and ID. No gun required to prove that they were a cop.
But the gun makes their dick hard.
but I don’t know that a prosecutor could make the case for intimidation.
If only he was a tall 21 year old black man I bet they could.
Just showing a holstered weapon is not inherently “brandishing”.
Right, brandishing implies intent to intimidate or threaten someone. That’s why I said in the second paragraph it doesn’t seem like he’s trying to be intimidating. To be clearer, what I should have said is “the term in question is brandishing” and the answer is “no, he wasn’t brandishing his weapon.”
Yeah if that were the case, police with a pistol on their hip or anyone open carrying would be brandishing. A bunch of states have permitless open carry. I think you have to have the gun in your hand to be guilty of brandishing, although I’m sure laws vary from state to state.
Ehh, He unconcealed it on purpose. It’s still not enough to be brandishing but he was doing it to make a point.
Nope.
In Indiana, this would fall under intimidation. Which is threats to modify or coerce behavior (without justification, I suppose,).
She said it herself in the video. “I feel unsafe… that makes me feel unsafe.” Clearly the gesture (which was hardly needed,) was viewed as threatening.
Depending on the state, brandishing may have more specific meanings, but generally, any attempt to call attention to the weapon (like exposing it on your hip,) is a use of force. More commonly, for example, putting your hand on the weapon.
In ~8 years of reviewing incidents for between 300 and 800 armed security guards; I’ve never seen any sort of “I’m armed!” - including displaying or putting a hand on it (without drawing) ever actually descalate. It was always either going to be drawn, anyhow, or never needed in the first.
It does, however, give the subject time to escalate themselves. So it always makes things worse.
The fact this guy never actually acknowledged that he had made his (presumed) constituents - aka highschool kids - feel unsafe, says either he’s too fucking unaware to carry a firearm, too fucking dumb to be a state legislator, or scaring her was exactly what he wanted.
Probably all three.
In Indiana, this would fall under intimidation. Which is threats to modify or coerce behavior (without justification, I suppose,).
No it wouldn’t and you know it. You seem intelligent enough to have posted the specific statute that he violated, and you very tellingly left it out. Don’t lose your mind just because some asshat Republican showed that he had a gun.
Depending on the state, brandishing may have more specific meanings, but generally, any attempt to call attention to the weapon (like exposing it on your hip,) is a use of force.
This is also untrue. Why are you just making stuff up?
Sorry? I left it out? You replied three times to me tilling me im wrong. You saw the link.
It seems you’re being just as dishonest here as you are accusing me of.
Also… you may wish to read something
Verbally threatening some one is use of force. Threatening with a gesture is use of force. In every state I’m aware of- which is about twenty, specifically- all treat a threat to use a fire arm as the same as using a fire arm
I have always been trained to never (intentionally) expose a concealed fire arm (unless a cop is asking you to.) precisely because the gesture is easily misunderstood as a threat.
But, you’re right, this guy could probably pass it off as debate. He shouldn’t be allowed to, though.
Sorry? I left it out? You replied three times to me tilling me im wrong. You saw the link.
Hey, you can’t just post a link to a law and hope that nobody actually looks at it. There’s nothing in the Indiana law that you linked to that supports what you claimed.
Verbally threatening some one is use of force. Threatening with a gesture is use of force. In every state I’m aware of- which is about twenty, specifically- all treat a threat to use a fire arm as the same as using a fire arm
Threatening requires…an actual threat. Just showing someone a gun is not a threat. I would challenge you to show me a law that says “showing someone a gun is a threat”. The laws I looked up said that threatening someone with a gun is a threat.
I have always been trained to never (intentionally) expose a concealed fire arm (unless a cop is asking you to.) precisely because the gesture is easily misunderstood as a threat.
The police are not a great standard for what should be considered a threat, nor are there any laws out there that say, “it’s a threat if a police officer would consider it a threat”.
Threatening requires…an actual threat. Just showing someone a gun is not a threat. I would challenge you to show me a law that says “showing someone a gun is a threat”. The laws I looked up said that threatening someone with a gun is a threat.
Would pointing a gun at someone be a threat? (Surely yes.) Why? Because it can intimidate someone (by a statement of intent to use force) into doing something they wouldn’t otherwise do.
OK, so can the same be said for placing your hand on a gun? What about placing a gun on a table? Surely, again, the answer is yes for both of those. Why? Because purposefully displaying your weapon is displaying your intent (or a warning of possible intent) to use it.
OK, so what’s the difference between those and displaying (purposefully to a group of people in opposition to you) your holstered gun? What is the possible intent? Was he just trying to show them a piece of his wardrobe or was their another motive? If the intent was to make them feel uncomfortable (and it did) then explain how it’s not a threat?
Threats don’t have to be words. Threats can be actions, like holding a knife to someone’s throat. If the intent is coercion through an implication of danger, it’s a threat. Arguments can be made that this wasn’t what happened, but you’d be hard pressed to get anyone like me to see this as anything else. What could the other possible intent be?
Threatening requires…an actual threat. Just showing someone a gun is not a threat. I would challenge you to show me a law that says “showing someone a gun is a threat”. The laws I looked up said that threatening someone with a gun is a threat.
you can communicate a threat to shoot some one without ever having a gun on your possession. (Gran Torino comes to mind, even if that is fiction.) Here’s the relevant text of Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-45-2-1. :
Sec. 1. (a) A person who communicates a threat with the intent:
- that another person engage in conduct against the other person’s will;
- that another person be placed in fear of retaliation for a prior lawful act;
- [trimming this, it’s not really relevant here. Basically saying you can’t yell ‘fire’ in a theater, or similar.]
commits intimidation, a Class A misdemeanor.
making threats in general is Class A misdemeanor. there’s conditions that can bump it to a class 6, or 5 felony (like, you’re threatening to commit a felony- aka to shoot some one.)
it goes on to say:
c) “Threat” means an expression, by words or action, of an intention to:
- unlawfully injure the person threatened or another person, or damage property;
…
6) expose the person threatened to hatred, contempt, disgrace, or ridicule;
…
I’ve bolded the important bits, and trimmed out a few that were irrelevant or just too wordy and also irrelevant.
care to explain how calling attention to being armed, isn’t on some level intended to shock or scare school kids? based on posture and what little context there was, it seems more reasonable to believe he wanted- consciously or otherwise- to scare and pressure these kids. And he used a firearm to do it.
you can use a device to intimidate without ever actually drawing or firing a weapon. on a geopolitical level, the entire premise of MAD is based on that. Simply opening his jacket was “using” in that sense. “I’m armed right now!! [SEE?]” there was absolutely zero reason, as far as legitimate policy arguments go, that flashing that pistol bolstered… and a reasonable belief, by members of this group, that he was indeed threatening them.
I am hard pressed to conceive of a scenario where the situation would be improved by such an announcement where simply drawing it would not also be a greater improvement.
Am I stretching things- a bit- ? probably. Will this guy get off because “i didn’t mean it that way?” Absolutely. because he’s rich(ish), white, and in a conservative stronghold that likes this sort bullshit. Does it mean he’s not guilty? No… Does it mean it’s okay to do? absolutely not.
Yeah. Despite fucked up beliefs we was engaged in respectful dialogue which is better than most
Wow, everyone must have been so impressed.
“Whoa, we have a badass here”
You forgot the space between “bad” and “ass”.
I mean… if you’re going to carry, don’t talk about it. Carrying is basically something that only makes the one carrying feel safer.
And is a tell-tale sign that the carrier is so insecure that he has to take his metal phallus symbol along.
We really need to make some way to cure micropenis. There would be more normal sized vehicles on the road and less guns to worry about. I almost feel bad for them, almost.
Proving that any unhinged moron can get a gun and be elected by Conservatives.
Not just can, but that’s specifically why they’re chosen. It’s not a mistake this idiot happened to be a Republican.
Headline makes it sound like he was threatening them. He was not.
Why was he showing it tp them, then?
From the article
In discussing places where firearms are banned, Lucas said people aren’t “truly free” unless they can defend themselves. A student off camera asked Lucas if he means carrying a firearm. Just over six minutes into the 10-minute video, Lucas said, “I’m carrying right now," and holds open his suit jacket exposing a holstered handgun. It was not immediately clear what kind of gun Lucas was carrying.
To answer the students question. Like to say “I’m not just telling, I’m doing.”
Ahh, so still an extremely stupid reason to flash your weapon.
I don’t know the rules of where he was, but my understanding is Indiana allows open-carry. Maybe its just who I grew up around, aka gun nerds and law enforcement- but I don’t see showing someone your gun as anymore than that.
I don’t get this. I was raised by a cop, and I’m very comfortable with firearms. Flashing your concealed weapon in public is immature at best. I can think of zero reason to flash a concealed weapon in public (unless you intend to defend yourself with it, right there in that moment), even if someone is asking to see it the answer is, “It’s not a toy”. It’s an object designed to kill, the threat is inherent in revealing it.
Not calling out you specifically, but the irreverent attitude of the loud pro-gun group has pushed me way further left on gun control than I used to be. Actions like OP tell me the leaders advocating for it do not have a healthy or mature view of firearms.
People do a lot of things a lot of other people view as cringy or immature. Flashing implies threatening, which in this context this doesn’t seem like to me.
Jim Lucas is such a piece of shit. He only makes my piece of shit Indiana representative (Larry Buschon) look like less of a piece of shit in comparison.
Video from AP:
Much ado about fucking nothing. He was like “I’m protecting your right to carry, blah blah, I’m even carrying right now”. Whatever, this is basically an article and thread for pearl clutchers.
You know how it’s crass and rude to drink in front of a recovering alcoholic, or to bring up traumatic triggers to people who are suffering PTSD(like say using a firecracker around a veteran). To people afraid of issues caused by gun ownership, there was no need to flash the gun to get his point across. It comes off as more of either a threat, or a total disinterest in treating the other side with respect.
“He’s got a gun. Shoot him!”
Everybody has guns.
Gun ownership is declining. The hoarders just keep buying more.
For the most part, it’s holding steady around 30%. I’ve read that certain demographics are seeing spikes in gun ownership lately, including women and Blacks.
including women and Blacks.
Only way we are ever going to get gun control is if both groups are open carrying.
This fucked up excrement calling itself a lawmaker should be fired and his family stripped of all rights and deported to darkest africa. I’m sick of idiot gun fuckhead nuts like this excremental sack of fucked up horse manure showing off their gun penises to everyone as if it was some badge of honor, when all it truly is is proof of their incurable and dangerous insanity.
I think we’ve done Africa enough harm, but otherwise I agree.
… call the cops. that’s intimidation right there.
Yeah. I thought if you were concealed carrying, any interaction with your gun that was visible from displaying, peaking, drawing all the way to pointing was considered a criminal threat.
indiana law, apparently they call it ‘intimidation’. He opened his jacket and displayed it with the intention of modifying their behavior.
You need to go re-read the link you posted, because you either didn’t understand it or you’re being highly dishonest about it.
to anyone who understand this behavior - what’s the man trying to do here? Is there any charitable read? Having a hard time imagining it.
I didn’t watch the video, but it sounds like it was in the context of discussing self defense. A student asked if he meant people should carry guns, so he showed that he was carrying one in an attempt to confirm that he practices what he preaches. He was probably also trying to normalize it. Pretty dumb, but obviously not intending to intimidate the kids.
If you watch the video, it clearly didn’t seem like any kind of intentional intimidation. Definitely a whoopsie since brandishing is illegal in most but not his state. But we should be charitable to compensate for our own biases and I think the title is a bit misleading about the context
Responsible gun owners sure do seem to have a lot of “whoopsies”.
“Whoopsie, I seem to have brandised my weapon at children”
“Whoopsie, I seem to have allowed my gun to be stolen”
“Whoopsie, a family member seems to have comitted suicide with my poorly secured firearm”.
“Whoopsie, I seem to have shot a child in the face over a misunderstanding”.
