A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.
Lmao, fuck this guy. He doesn’t give two fucks about Palestine or its people.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are denying this and portraying Hamas as freedom fighters is very worrying.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are waking up from the Zionist propaganda is very worrying to you?
Israel being evil doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. If you butcher unarmed men, women, and children, then you’re fucking evil. Fuck Isreal, and fuck Hamas.
“Hitler being evil doesn’t make the Allies the good guys! They bombed Dresden and killed many German civilians!”
“Everyone who does a war crime is equally evil and if you aren’t perfect when you fight back against being Genocided you are equally as evil as the party doing the Genocide!”
Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?
Nobody was doing it. Nobody cared. So Hamas fought back. Nobody did anything when they peacefully protested in 2018. Don’t complain now.
Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?
… is fucking Hamas doing it right now? Because from what I see, Israel is closer to completing their genocide than they have been in my lifetime. Sure as fuck doesn’t look like they’ve STOPPED anything, but rather poured gasoline on the fire.
Israel is further from completing their Genocide than they have ever been. They used to be able to just slowly take over land with full international support. Israel is now the pariah of the world and the Abraham accords are gone. Hamas has taken off the mask and shown israel as the Nazis they are.
but rather poured gasoline on the fire.
TIL fighting against the fire = pouring gasoline on it.
People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly. We’re currently seeing mass protests on college campuses, is that because people are really mad israel is doing a Genocide in the West Bank right now too?
People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly.
The only thing we can be certain of is that Hamas’s attack has led to Israel genociding some 30,000 Palestinians. The fuck makes you think killing a bunch of civilians is in any way fighting for any cause other than extending the conflict? But neither Hamas nor you care about that; only drum-beating for Islamofascism using Palestinian independence as a shield for that shitfuckery. Fucking insane.
Hamas “fought back” by breaking down the doors of Israeli homes and slaughtering the families cowering inside. Gunning down teenagers at a music festival and kidnapping the survivors. That wasn’t strategy. That was fanatical hatred, cowardly, and evil.
Hamas are cowards, perfectly happy to sit back and watch innocent Palestinians be slaughtered in the aftermath.
If you ever find yourself on either side of asymmetric warfare, and you’re killing kids…you’re the bad guy.
The IDF has killed 11 thousand men, 9 thousand women, and 14 thousand children, making 34 thousand total killed (an unknown number of which were civilians). Hamas has killed 0.6 thousand military personnel and 0.8 thousand civilians, making 1.4 thousand total killed (57% of which were civilians).
The number of children killed by Isreal (only children) is 17 times larger than the number of civilians killed by Hamas. Of course that doesn’t make killing civilians OK, but I struggle to see an argument that Hamas is worse than the IDF. And if Hamas is the only method by which Palestine can defend itself, then there is a solid argument to be made for it being the lesser evil.
Both groups are murderers. One is just better equipped for it. Hamas hasn’t killed less civilians out of some kind of restraint or combat disipline, they just don’t have the same capability as the IDF. Meanwhile, Israel is gleefully using all the free shit that it’s allies are supplying it with to kill every man woman and child in sight. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.
At some point you might learn that simplistic, childish concepts of pure good and evil rarely apply in this world. Yes, the Allies were the good guys in WW2. Being the good guy doesn’t mean you’re perfect, because absolutely nothing is.
At some point you might learn that lesson yourself.
Go find out what the ANC did in South Africa to free themself from their colonizers. Go find out how the Haitans rebelled against their colonizers. Go learn how the American Natives fought back against their colonizers.
Hamas colonial resistance was probably one of the most targeted in all of history with a 33%+ soldier kill rate. But of course nothing is good enough for those that demand absolute perfection from angry people in a concentration camp.
Like the other user said, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa only became successful after it abandoned violent resistance - and citing Haiti as an aspirational example is downright hysterical.
There’s also a massive difference between demanding outright perfection and not applauding people who behead Asian guest workers (who, as I’m sure you are aware, but equally willing to ignore, are not “evil Zionist colonizers”) with a rusty gardening hoe while live-streaming the torture-murder on the Internet. Coincidentally, you seem to have no trouble with demanding outright perfection from the IDF, who, by the way, has a roughly similar soldier kill rate in this conflict according to most estimates - but I bet you are not willing to applaud them for that.
As for what Gaza actually was, here’s what this supposed “concentration camp” looked like before the war:
If you consider that Hamas only exists to fight against Israeli oppression over an ineffective PA, it makes sense that if the oppression ends, Hamas becomes irrelevant.
It’s important to note that for most of its existence, “fighting against Israeli oppression” explicitly meant Israel no longer existing. This is the first time I can remember them even implying that they would accept a two state solution.
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948
After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. This is apartheid. Despite this, both Fatah and Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.
Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
History of peace process - The Intercept
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Small details, I know
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab. It’s not that they wanted ‘non-arab immigrants’ out, it’s that Zionist Settler Colonialism was quite different from normal immigration. Instead of integration, the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s. Many Palestinians opposed the Zionist Land Purchases and Immigration because of fears they would be forced out of their homes and communities, not because they were Jewish.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Are you talking about the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians? Because that was planned and carried out. There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army.
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab
If you have sympathy for that argument, what’s the difference with jewish people who want the same? Both wanted to be the first class citizens in their country.
the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s
That’s true, but it’s not different from renters who are forced out after their landlord sells the property. It’s not a ‘nice’ part of humanity, but it’s generally accepted as ‘fair’. Of course it’s true that most zionist immigrants had no plans to integrate with non-jews. Partly because of their own religious backwardness, partly because they moved there specifically to escape religious oppression.
There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army
There certainly was: Nebi Musa riots; 1929 Palestine Riots; etc. certainly showed the intent of many Palestinian Arabs to put an ethnic cleansing on the jews.
You’re quite wrong if you don’t think the ALA or others didn’t go in with the same intent. You should look up their logo or statements from their organizers prior to their attack. The only reason one side won is because the other side lost
Hamas has lied about peace and democracy in the past. They became the state of Palestine by winning an election in which they promised to stop attacks on civilians and be democratic, then refusing to hold an election for 2 decades.
Israel is a genocidal regime and needs to be stopped. But that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. A long-term solution can’t include the current governments of either Israel or Palestine.
Hamas won an election in 2007, which no other country accepted the results of. Israel responded with a blockade. Not saying they’re the good guys but it’s not like it’s a level playing field.
What! They “won” an election that nobody outside HAMAS found legitimate??? And then the country they promise to exterminate reacted? No way!?!?!?!?
Don’t let facts get in your way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
International observers noted that the elections, for the most part, were conducted fairly and in accordance with international standards.
There were some reports of voter obstruction - caused by Israel.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’
-Article 7 of Hamas’ founding charter
They were founded to kill Jews and push them out of Palestine. They’re not righteous freedom fighters.
“Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
They’re just as genocidal as Israel has been as of late, they just lack the same capability Israel does.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990’s, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
No I don’t support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.
Thanks for the links, I’ll give this a read later today.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
It said a free Palestinian State not Hamas rules
They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.
I mean yeah, but why can’t we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?
The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren’t actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.
Because they almost certainly aren’t real accounts.
Hey it’s you again… Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope
Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren’t actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.
Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain’t no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.
Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I’d prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced… Otherwise it’s boring.
I wouldn’t accept payment for this, I have a real job that’s actually productive and makes peoples’ lives better in tangible ways. That’s enough for me. This is just bonus.
Maybe that’s just a “leftist” attitude that you can’t comprehend.
Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don’t know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.
Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.
Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.
Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?
Oh, it’s just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I’m that case I don’t think you’re being vacuous.
I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.
Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can’t differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.
You mean to fight the occupation?
Haha. Some fight. Millions of people living and dying in poverty and malnourishment so they could do a mass shooting of 1,300 people. They really showed em!
They have zero chance of fighting Israel and the only proper course for Hamas is an unconditional surrender and whatever peace terms Israel will grant them. They should be lucky to get the rights due prisoners of war. Usually you have to put yourself in a uniform to get those rights.
This is the reality no one wants to accept. Either surrender unconditionally, or be ethnically cleansed because it’s clear the rest of the world’s governments don’t care.
Yeah, it’s clear ethnic cleansing, God of Blood, only 2.06 million of 2.10 million Gazans are left!
The Palestinian cause was already dying and it was only time before they were erased or expunged. What hamas did was revive that cause, even if you don’t agree with them killing civilians (which i dont either). Most Palestinians were already living in terrible conditions and not because of hamas but because of the israel blockade of gaza. Which rendered it essentially to concentration camp.
The 1300 figure wasnt all by hamas. And from what we know so far about 300 were soliders, 300 were killed by israel themselves in the crossfire, and 300 were indeed civilians.
So far hamas has done pretty good for it self and has made some losses for israel. At the very least you can see its not a victory for israel.
Bud anyone that died in the chaos on October 7 was killed by Hamas. That’s how criminal culpability works.
The blockade too was caused by Hamas and its ideological allies and predecessors. Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership. They turned every public institution into instrumentalities of international terrorism. Hamas is the enemy. It’s sad they have used psychotic interpretations of Islam to convince apparently significant portions of the Gazans public that Martyrdom™ is a civic duty, like where a legitimate state might have jury service or voting, but an evil, fanatical thing, not civic at all.
After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.
The thing is: the Israelis don’t get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.
Israel is preventing this self determination by enforcing the weapons blockade on Gaza. All Israel has to do is nothing. Just stop actively preventing these people from being armed, and the human spirit will do the rest.
And just to be clear, I do NOT mean “CIA should go train some paramilitary to take down Hamas”.
Instead I mean “This is a gun store. Any adult may come here and trade money for a gun. That gun is now yours to do with as you see fit. You can hang it on your wall. You can use it to make sandwiches. You can shoot cans in an alley. Whatever. It’s your gun.”
Literally just let these people exercise their rights.
Israel is preventing this because, in practice, most people don’t want to die in a civil war. This would just lead to better-equipped terrorists killing even more Jews.
Two issues. The first is that they aren’t going to get pre-1967 borders. The larger more important point though is that Hamas just admitted they aren’t a legitimate government power and are actually terrorists instead. Own goal.
Terrorism is a verb.
Terrorists are people that commit terrorism.
Official count is now 42,000 dead Palestinians, but that is because the ability to count the dead no longer exists. The number is probably closer to 100,000
Israeli doctors have come forward to detail how amputations are regular for Palestinian prisoners who have been zip tied for months now.
Any definition of terrorism that includes Hamas, also includes the Israeli government.
Edit: recognizing your username, now is when you’ll call me antisemitic.
The number is probably closer to 100,000
Based on what exactly?
Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.
It is interesting that Lemmy is so small that I can recognize the usernames of genocide defenders so easily.
Tell me: is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?
Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?
Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.
Can you share your methodology of calculating this number? You are not basing this on anything but your gut-feeling. Given how most of your comments consist of blindly parroting propaganda instead of even trying to form any in-depth understanding of this topic, that’s not surprising. Hell, you once attacked me for trying to bring nuance into this debate, at which point I was done with you for that day, because could there be anything more intellectually bankrupt?
is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?
Sure thing. If orders to deliberately exterminating Palestinians came to light, that would certainly be it. Those should exist if the goal of the IDF, as frequently claimed by people like you who make up fantasy numbers to then feel outraged about, was genocide. Of course, this clashes with various efforts of the same IDF to prevent Palestinian civilians from being harmed, which is kind of odd, don’t you think?
So either they are using e.g. roof knocking and a whole range of other warning measures just for PR-purposes (even though it significantly hurts their military efforts and their PR - Hamas can escape and the moment any building is being roof-knocked, dozens of cameras are immediately on it in order to film it, with lots of people feeling perfectly safe, trusting that this building and only this building will be hit; strange that) or the truth isn’t as simple as you are so desperately trying to make it be. You haven’t exactly been writing particularly well thought out comments on this topic at any point. Not that this limits your enthusiasm for your self-righteous preaching. Dunning, meet Kruger.
Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?
No, but good job trying distracting from your fantasy numbers. This might constitute criminal neglect. Those responsible should be punished and measures should be undertaken to prevent this from occurring. While internal review processes are far from perfect at the IDF, they do at least exist and are being applied. Two senior officers responsible for ordering the recent air strikes on aid workers were sacked, for example. The same could happen here as well.
GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity - Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC)
With them on top of that new state? There will never be peace as long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in power. They all need to go
It’s interesting how you select one person from the israeli government but all of Hamas.
Hamas is far more peaceful than israel. They have proven this in 2018 with their peaceful march. The problem is that israel does not respond to words.
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Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.
This isn’t a both sides argument, as western media tries again and again to frame every fucking story. This is the oppressed fighting back.
Terrorist labels aren’t used for armed forces protecting settlers as they rampage Palestinian villages. Terrorist labels aren’t used as hospitals are leveled. Terrorist labels aren’t used when they drop leaflets to tell civilians to move to a place to avoid getting shelled and then SHELLING that place. Terrorist labels aren’t used when a large percentage of children of a whole People grow up without parents because of mass murder. Terrorism isnt used for the decades of genocide. Decades.
Terrorist labels get used when those children become adults and respond how most of us would respond to the conditions of the open air prison in which they reside and will likely die early. Why on earth would you expect them to be peaceful?
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And why haven’t they had an election in 18 years? Because they are a subjugated people and Israel won’t allow elections.
There are no good sides here, but that’s a particularly bad gotcha argument.
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Living under an Apartheid State with no human or civil rights, subjected to violence Occupying Force on a daily basis, is not ‘having a border with them’
Edit:
To clarify, my point is that free and fair elections are impossible under an Apartheid Regime.
Hamas certainly tortures and kills political rivals, and has been exposed for corruption. In addition, Fatah is also corrupt, seen as working at the behest of Israel at the expense of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Both have been funded by Israel as part of a Divide and Conquer tactic. Israel also has a long history of assassinating more moderate and leftist political Palestinian rivals.
Hamas Victory Driven By Desire To End Corruption WPO
Hamas Political Violence in Gaza - HRW 2009
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty
Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry - Amnesty
Palestinians furious and fed up with corruption of Abbas’s ‘mafia’ PA - MEE
“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood - DemocracyNow
Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review - The Guardian
