Unfortunately, I drive a ghetto minivan which causes the police to profile me and has caused people in small towns to call the police on me if I am in a public park or in their neighborhood. I even had someone call the police on me at campground that I had pre-paid for and the police were not sympathetic at all to my right to just exist.
I am aware of stop and identify laws and know that a cop needs reasonable suspicion to demand to see your ID. However, can’t the cop just make up some lies about reasonable suspicion?
If a cop approaches me can I immediately start with: “Officer, do you have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred, is in the process of occurring, or is about to occur?” It seems like that will immediately escalate things even if technically the law is on my side.
I just want a damn right to exist law and to not be a target for an overactive imagination by the police which treats me like a criminal until they can check me for warrants.
Honestly, I want to tell them to fuck off right away but I also don’t have money for a lawyer.
Not sure if it’d help, but you could stick a buuunch of camping, hiking, outdoors, etc. stickers on your van. Try to turn its image from a “ghetto” van to a “hippy / outdoor enthusiast” van. I imagine you can order large sticker packs online for very cheap.
Yeah, that is a good idea. It would probably work best on a VW van like the kind surfers use. I suppose with enough stickers strategically placed it could look like you were into rock climbing, or surfing, or something involving the outdoors.
Just a heads-up, vans with climbing stickers can attract break-ins because they tell people “there’s a bunch of expensive gear in here that would be easy to fence”. Happens all the time in vegas. Hope you stay safe out there!
Maybe a bunch of penguin stickers and one that says, “Ask me about Linux!”
Might hurt on date night, though.
“There’s a bunch of computers in there! But we don’t know how to use them.”
Yeah, rock climbing sounds even better than hippies for this purpose.
I just had a mental image of some overweight dude with tons of rock climbing stickers on their van. (Not implying anything OP, but just a funny picture I imagined)
After seeing the article about the 300lb pentathlete (who, yes, has to deal with social pressures due to his unusual build) I wouldn’t even blink.
But law enforcement in the US are eager to invoke stereotypes if it will get them closer to securing an arrest / conviction.
Ideally, you do what helps become invisible to police officers.
Guess you have to look the part to sell this one properly
This is an awesome idea. Here are a couple (here’s one, here’s another, and for kicks and giggles a third).
Pigs is pigs, buddy.
You gotta play along unless you wanna start shit. And pigs being pigs means you can’t really start telling them what they’re doing is inappropriate or unnecessary, that puts em in fight or flight mode and pigs don’t fly.
I’d guess your best bet would be that they get used to you and become nonchalant with their check-ins. Just be stupid friendly about the whole thing and maybe try to remember a few of their names. If it’s a small town, can’t be too many of em. Eventually maybe you can shift it from “Good afternoon, Officer, what seems to be the problem?” to “Ah hey Steve, Mrs. Granger worried about me again? Aint that sweet, how’s the kids?”
Edit: I see elsewhere in the thread you mentioned you’re living in the van. That makes things harder. Even if you’re complying with the law, pigs hate that shit. When I was living in a car, I had a sob story ready for any cop that interrogated me and if I got caught and had to use it, I wasn’t sleeping in that county again for another month. The campground bit is especially fucking frustrating, you PAID to be there, that’s all on the up and up. They’re monsters, buddy, not sure how to help, but I find being some caricature outta some 50’s PSA film to em pads their egos and smooths interactions in general. Tho the shoddy van won’t help.
that puts em in fight or flight mode and pigs don’t fly.
😂 Love that line!
Keep Pokemon Go on your phone, when they approach, open the app and then nerd the fuck out on them about whatever Pokemon are nearby and try to recruit them, they’ll leave you alone real quick.
“Sir, do i detect an herb smell?”
“Yeah I think there’s an oddish around here somewhere. Want to help me look?”
That must be the incense I used to attract more Pokemon!
If you’re not doing anything illegal then I highly recommend keeping your hands out in the open where they can see both of them, and politely answering their questions.
They have a gun, so its not about right/wrong, it’s about your own safety. You don’t know if that’s a decent one or a shitty one.
Yeah, you are right. Once I opened the door when I got pulled over by Border Patrol. I opened it because my power window was broken. They did not like me opening the door.
Many police departments in the US are explicitly trained to treat encounters with people as potential combat situations. They get taught lessons like “Your first job is to go home alive.” It’s continually drilled into them how dangerous their job is, even though that’s not statistically true. This obligates you to treat an encounter with an officer as a potentially life threatening situation.
If your window isn’t working, do not open your door. Police regularly approach a traffic stop prepared for a violent confrontation, sometimes going so far as resting their hand on their firearm.
I worked on a military base for a while, where each vehicle was stopped to show ID badges. The right approach is to say (and mime - eg point at the window, point down, and shake your head “no”) that your window isn’t working. They’ll probably take a step back and tell you to open the door.
It’s wrong, it needs to change, but until it does we need to adapt our behaviors to fit the situations we are put into.
Solid post. These guys get “warrior” training. Like they are embedded with the enemy. When you set the general tone like that, common folk are at a disadvantage right out of the gate.
Be respectful and polite and try to escape the situation with as little impact as possible.
Lt. Colonel David Grossman is not the worst thing to happen to american policing but he’s sure not helping anything.
When cops don’t know the laws they are enforcing and thus telling your rights is not only seen as demeaning since it’s their job to know, but makes them actively hostile and more likely to violate those rights out of embarrassment, it’s a no win scenario. Better to just go along with their security theater and say as little as possible outside of answering direct questions.
You only have rights if you survive the encounter first.
A few years ago, I was pulled over after waving at a cop as we locked eyes while still stopped at an intersection. He said it was because my seat belt wasn’t on, even though it was and I was in a lime green shirt so the dark gray belt should have been pretty visible across my chest and he wanted to argue that I put it on as he was pulling me over. To which I pointed out my dashcam system, said my belt was on the entire time and I could show him the video right now if he wanted. He just got pissed and gave me a ticket anyway. “Ok, but I have proof that you’re wrong so this is just a huge waste of everyone’s time,” I said as he walked away.
Fucker didn’t even show up to court so it was thrown out. Really was just wasting everyone’s time. Mine. His. And the courthouse’s.
Should have been a black mark on his record.
What color are you? Pigs basically use
as training material, so the darker shade you are the more careful you gotta be with slow hand movements and clear communication.The answer is “am I being detained or am I free to go?” The answer to every question after is “lawyer” or shut the fuck up. Every day is Shut The Fuck Up Friday.
STFU Friday is gospel. Especially the one with Michael Rappaport.
The cop mentality is all about feeling superior, so the last thing you want is to challenge him. Probably gets angry real quick and maybe even violent.
You have to treat them as if they are criminals. Don’t upset them, stay quiet, try to act submissive.
How you want the world to treat you or the car only exists in your head. In reality, people gets treated after how they are perceived by others.
Wow, “treat cops as if they are criminals”
That’s a piece of advice I’ll share around
“What seems to be the problem officer?” Is how you should start every conversation with the police. Be polite, respectful, and firm in your rights. And most importantly don’t say more than the answer to legal questions.
To me that sounds like it’s opening the door by assuming there’s a problem. I think I’d lead with “good morning sir” and let them start talking.
I disagree solely because you want to be the one asking why the cop is there and the cop is going to try to beat you to that punch. If they ask why you think there’s a problem “a police officer is getting my attention” is a valid response.
Anyway if anyone wonders why cops are hated, it’s the fact that ordinary law abiding citizens need to learn the special language that makes cops not get aggressive and accuse you of crimes.
If you’re in a vehicle, they do have the right to check if you’re the registered owner, are licensed and insured, tags up to date, etc.
Best advice:
Longer, but the most important 45 minutes you can spend today:
tl;dw - The Miranda warning tells you everything you need to know: “Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU.” Not for you, AGAINST YOU.
Nothing you say to the cops will be used to help you, so do not talk to them.
If I see them approaching from far away and hop out of the vehicle am I then a pedestrian and no longer count as being in my vehicle?
The only thing that really matters is if you are driving or not. So if the vehicle is turned off and the keys are out of the ignition, you are not a driver. Therefore they cannot issue any moving violations or any similar driving related citations. Unless you are illegally parked, that’s another issue.
If they are already approaching you, and you jump out of the car, that would look automatically suspicious to the suspicion-filled pig brain. So if you want to get out just do that before they approach.
Nah, if you are in control of the vehicle. Meaning if you have the keys and the ability to turn it on and drive. Sleeping drunk in a vehicle can get you a DUI even if the car is off and you’re parked.
Seems to me you can be charged with DUI if you’re drunk and in a car regardless of whether the keys are in it or not?
You shut the fuck up is what you do and film them if possible. Are you under arrest? No. Then police may not detain you without cause. See ya!
All inexperienced young people who get into issues with cops or landlords seem to want to be as deferential as possible, thinking that will mitigate any trouble that’s coming their way. But in essence, these people always ask for ways to make the cops/landlord’s job easier. Don’t tell them what words they need to say to you, don’t ask for specific paperwork. It’s their job to remove your personal freedoms and liberties, why would you make it easier for them to do that?
Say “hi”.
Damn being white guy is the best shit ever.
I’d just show them my ID.
Well, go buy a shitty minivan and drive it through some small towns and then after you get harassed you might get fed up a little. Maybe I was too ambiguous with the post title…I should have posted “what should I do” rather than “what do you do”
i also live in a shitty minivan… getting it over with as quickly and politely as possible is actually your best bet.
one lovely cop expression is “you only need one nail to hang your hat on”, meaning: they can pretty much arrest you at any time because there’s always some crime or suspicion of a crime they can get you for…
or another way to frame it is: at the end of the day, cops with guns will do what they want… so don’t make them want to do anything…
or, more directly, in my decades of vagabond experience… do not try to argue, debate or shame the cops, unless you really want a couple of tickets and several court dates to argue your position…
“i smell burnt marijuana”, for example, is a cop’s goto for searching your van… ive seen them say it when there was definitely no weed around… but that’s not going to help you, until after a bunch of court and bullshit…
…
basically there’s no way to make all cops respect your rights without some tedious court shit… you may be legally correct, but that doesn’t help until much later…
…
pragmatically, you can try to blend in more… paint rusy spots, etc and make your van look more normy… keep your van clean and free of any character… any self expression…
clear dashboard, clean interior… make it look like you might not be camping in there.
…
another touch i like is leave some folders from the local city college on your dashboard.
there’s a huge difference in sympathy between a broke student living in their van, trying to pull up bootstraps or whatever, and what they imagine is some junky/psycho bum living in their van getting free rent.it’s a dumb world but just seeming friendly and sympathetic helps… they don’t have the framework to imagine what you’re going through…
housey-psychology is all guesswork, but it seems like college, musician/artist, and having a dog helps…
definitely seeming as clean and organized as possible helps… any evidence of beer and you’re automatically a scumbag…
reddit sucks, obviously, but the vagabond and vanliving subs have good resources…
I don’t see how asking for an ID is harassment. Like, are they asking you every day even though they know you by now?
different towns…also the incident at the campground happened and there were other people camping. The cop didn’t go check in on any of them. His specific “reasonable suspicion” was that in the past at that campground they have had trouble with “riff-raff”. Great! So be it, then why not go ID check all the other campers then? I was being profiled and targeted because of the vehicle I was driving. If you don’t understand then that’s because this hasn’t happened to you 10 times or more. It gets tiring.
Were the other campers actually camping and you were just a minivan parked at a campsite?
Because not many campers just sit inside a minivan the whole time.
But meth heads do, because they can’t smoke meth out in the open.
Stop being angry people notice you, and start trying to blend in. If you’re paying for the site, you might as well use it.
I have a ghetto van. It does not blend in. The campground was one incident. There are many more which have happened in parking lots where other people are also sitting in their cars. Since the invention of smart phones a lot of people sit in their cars for various reasons and look at their phones or use laptops. It’s not illegal nor suspicious to sit in your car. - Anytime you vent online people look for an angle to blame you. I just want to exist without being harassed like everyone else.
So…
You did go to a campsite where families were in tents and you just sat inside your sketchy minivan and don’t understand why the cops were called?
It might be just one example, but it was your pick. You saw nothing wrong with you behavior or understood why it was suspicious…
So there’s a good chance lots of the time you don’t see a reason, there’s a very good reason it’s happening.
Go lurk on r/vandwelling on Reddit, there’s a shit ton of old posts going over common sense stuff that you would greatly benefit from. And I sincerely mean that as good advice, by your own admission you want help.
But there’s not a lot of people on Lemmy, and this is pretty important.
So go reathe posts of people who live this life and have been doing it for years.
It’s really helpful to say what country you are in.
Lol was it not immediately obvious with this description of police? The us has the worst police issue like ever. Cops in other corrupt authoritarian countries at least don’t pretend they aren’t corrupt and authoritarian
It’s actually obvious as soon as a person doesn’t say where they are from, because there’s typically only one nationality that assumes you know where they are from.
There’s a lot of disappointing comments on here, like no shit you would use a different vehicle if you had access.
First, someone mentioned any cop has the right to check for insurance/etc, so being prepared for that and being amicable, as bright-eyed as you can be. Those marks usually get noted I think though. And another mentioned a sob story, harder in some circumstances but you can get pretty creative from Moms colonoscopy to funeral road trip (from the colonoscopy ofc).
However, I would like to add - do you have any way to meet creative people willing to turn your ghetto van into a painted art car? I was wondering what region you’re around (don’t need to mention it no worries) and you’ve mentioned a lot of small towns which makes me think mid-south or west. Either way, going over the car with some primer and a theme may help turn it from ghetto to art-van.
I would try hitting up craigslist or posting on local pages, if funds are an issue I would maybe just mention the situation, doing it in sections. A for sure place you can get it done though for free? Pretty much anywhere in the PNW (OR/WA at least) there are all kinds of weird parties and gatherings and I’ve seen tons of “paint me” vans, and honestly most of the time they look freaking sick. They’re always a mix of hand paint and airbrush.
If you are able to save some over time, you could technically apply these yourself for just barely cheaper than an auto-shop, but it would be some work. You’d need 1 - 1 1/2 of grey primer to cover the van - anywhere from $35 (check dates then shake really, really well) to $85. And then probably the spray/air gun.
Either way, you’ll want to follow the proper care for treating the car before you paint it - clean, sand, primer, (maybe sand, maybe not if art car), then the hard part is the clear coat. That part I’m not as familiar with unfortunately.
Last random idea, there are these like rental camper vans, probably a bunch of companies but faking one of those. Same idea as the art car just dumber lol.
Anyways, good luck and I hope in the future you have better reception to questions like this - and that you’re able to relax wherever you’re staying.
like no shit you would use a different vehicle if you had access.
Thanks for stating that! It’s like when there’s a cold snap below freezing and some homeless guy freezes to death from exposure and someone says, “Why didn’t he just go rent a hotel room for the night? It’s just one night”
Watching it now, thanks! It sucks that you have to study the law for rights you already have but “it is what it is”.
To the guy downvoting every time I comment - do you feel powerful doing that? I even got a downvote for simply stating the country I live in. Dude, I live in a van and I get harassed by cops. I’m just trying to get some advice from people (like that Youtube link @David_Eight just posted) Keep downvoting, you’re not going to make my life any worse.
