It’s not an ad hominem, and it wasn’t a counter argument, you were being unnecessarily rude when you could have just said “that’s not anarchism”. My counter argument was “that’s not what I said at all”.
You can really do better
Ironic.
If you’d like to define anarchism instead of playing debate club, I could let you know if that’s a label I agree with.
It is ad hominem. It is the definition itself, avoiding the argument to focus on an unrelated aspect of the other person or delivery.
Also HAHAHAHA. The burden of prof does not lie on me to provide your majesty with a definition that you will deny no matter what I say.
Coming from Reddit is a hard transition mate, but this isn’t Reddit. We don’t do this here, have fun arguing with a brick wall. No one needs snarky one liners and debatebro logic.
Hey, there’s no need of being overly aggressive towards someone who is willing to engage. Yes, they are an internet anarchist with no theory attached, but they are way more respectful than other lost stragglers. You dont have mock or belittle them.
Its okay not to want to repeat same interactions over and over again. But your response was disproportionate to the actual offence, it is not a good look to be an aggressive party in that could have been a calm, although probably unfulfilling conversation. Now they can just screencap the conversation and post it somewhere lamenting the unreasonable tankies.
A calm, unfulfilling conversation that goes nowhere is in other words a waste of time.
I am not concerned about optics, they already do screencap and whine at every single thing that ML’s do. I am not here to put on a front, and I will not play along with someone who is obviously completely uninterested in the conversation at hand and obviously not here in good faith. Those types of people are not welcome here, and I will not coddle and tolerate that.
Anarchists are perfectly fine to me, especially if they are interested in ML or anarchist theory and its nuance. In fact, many are very amicable and come away from the conversation having both learned and taught something.
Internet Anarkiddies on the other hand are an utter waste of time.
I know tone is difficult to convey across text, and I do not mean to come across as vindictive and hostile for no reason. I just will not tolerate a reddit debatebro anarachist, and do not want them here.
Burden of proof? I never claimed anything except “different people have different interpretations,” do you need a source for that? You are extremely desperate for conflict, and I’m not interested.
If you’re willing to engage beyond fallacies, then how do you justify supporting western governments engaged in constant imperialist war and extraction for their capitalist constituents against “authoritarian” countries like Cuba who have actual democracy and put all their resources into helping their people through a brutal embargo (by the us) by providing free and quality education and medicine? [if that is indeed your position, correct me if I’m wrong.]
An important part of ML that we agree upon in theory is that states will inevitably arise as long as the conditions are there for such. Through scientific study we have come to the conclusion that the existence of classes, exploiters and exploited, is the basis of states. A state is a mechanism for the rule of one class over others. If you are an anarchist as you claim, your ultimate goal should be eliminate the state. That is our goal as communists, and our method is a state of the working class used to provide for the needs of the former needs of the exploited while suppressing the exploiters (landlords, capitalists, kulaks, monarchists, fascists), this is what liberals call “authoritarianism.”
I don’t justify all the actions of western governments, and I don’t identify as an anarchist, what I meant was that I agree with some principles of anarchism
This whole thing started when you said “Pretending that there isn’t a spectrum, of governments restricting liberty or expression, isn’t helping anyone.” The type of anarchists criticized by OP are those that say they hate all government yet only criticize enemies of the US. I would agree with what you originally said as in socialist societies are less oppressive to the average person than capitalism (insert Stalin quote:
spoiler
IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO IMAGINE WHAT PERSONAL LIBERTY IS ENJOYED BY AN UNEMPLOYED HUNGRY PERSON. TRUE FREEDOM CAN ONLY BE WHERE THERE IS NO EXPLOITATION AND OPPRESSION OF ONE PERSON BY ANOTHER: WHERE THERE IS NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, AND WHERE A PERSON IS NOT LIVING IN FEAR OF LOSING HIS JOB, HIS HOME AND HIS BREAD. ONLY IN SUCH A SOCIETY PERSONAL AND ANY OTHER FREEDOM CAN EXIST FOR REAL AND NOT ON PAPER.
)
The whole reason why all of us are arguing with you is because you seem to be defending the anarchists we criticize, despite supposedly not agreeing with them.
well the OP image had a whataboutism energy, like “you criticize a state despite all states being bad” and like I said I don’t think that kind of attitude is helping anyone in the context of discussing more or less oppressive governments
It’s not “whataboutism” it’s pointing out contradictions in their internal logic. “I hate all states, but I agree with the US’s foreign policy and hate their enemies specifically.” If someone is against unjust hierarchy they should be primarily anti-capitalist as capitalism is a very “authoritarian” system where one’s boss has autocratic control of their labor power and you don’t have work because the system can’t find need for you you may be condemned to starve. There is also global imperialism, slave (prison) labor and so on. This is the system we should spend our energy opposing as most of us live under it. Also, even if you don’t like Russia or China, if you live in the US your “anti-hierarchical energy” should be spend fighting the US. Especially as they are the global imperialist hegemon and have more bodies to their name than any other government (beside maybe Britain from whom they inherited their system). Even if you oppose Russia too (which is also capitalist), leave it to the Russians to fight Putin.
It’s not a contradiction and it’s not about the United States’ foreign policy, it’s about the differences in restricted expression between states. Would you not agree that a country that has LGBT-free zones are more oppressive than otherwise comparable countries?
You can think all states are authoritarian and acknowledge that some states allow more liberty than others, so bringing up that all states are authoritarian is a whataboutism (“You think that state is particularly authoritarian? But what about the inherent authority of all states?”)
He doesn’t need to do that, actual anarchists have done so already, and if you took the time to read any foundational anarchist theory you would know what the definition is.
The only way anarchism has “different definitions to different people” is if they too were not interested in the theory and instead just the label, which is what this meme is about…
If you actually believed in dismantling unjust hierarchies you would understand that all hierarchies are unjust. Like the political hierarchy of the United States.
Yeah that’s true, I haven’t done any anarchist reading, but I’ve had numerous alleged anarchists explain things differently, so I just said which aspects I agree with.
Others might have a better answer, so I’ll allow them to make suggestions. My commentary stems from holding similar views on Communism/Socialism, until I decided to actually dive into the theory. I’ve listened to the communist manifesto, and working on listening to Capital currently. I’d like to eventually read Black Shirts and Reds by Parenti. Having a good foundational understanding will help you evaluate our current place and time through the lense of these political ideologies and help avoid simply barking shibboleths at the moon.
It’s not an ad hominem, and it wasn’t a counter argument, you were being unnecessarily rude when you could have just said “that’s not anarchism”. My counter argument was “that’s not what I said at all”.
Ironic.
If you’d like to define anarchism instead of playing debate club, I could let you know if that’s a label I agree with.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing#:~:text=Ignoring the truth or falsity,angry while still being rational.
It is ad hominem. It is the definition itself, avoiding the argument to focus on an unrelated aspect of the other person or delivery.
Also HAHAHAHA. The burden of prof does not lie on me to provide your majesty with a definition that you will deny no matter what I say.
Coming from Reddit is a hard transition mate, but this isn’t Reddit. We don’t do this here, have fun arguing with a brick wall. No one needs snarky one liners and debatebro logic.
Hey, there’s no need of being overly aggressive towards someone who is willing to engage. Yes, they are an internet anarchist with no theory attached, but they are way more respectful than other lost stragglers. You dont have mock or belittle them.
They are not “willing to engage”, I’ve seen the same thing dozens of times, and it always ends the same way. I don’t want internet anarkiddies here.
Its okay not to want to repeat same interactions over and over again. But your response was disproportionate to the actual offence, it is not a good look to be an aggressive party in that could have been a calm, although probably unfulfilling conversation. Now they can just screencap the conversation and post it somewhere lamenting the unreasonable tankies.
A calm, unfulfilling conversation that goes nowhere is in other words a waste of time.
I am not concerned about optics, they already do screencap and whine at every single thing that ML’s do. I am not here to put on a front, and I will not play along with someone who is obviously completely uninterested in the conversation at hand and obviously not here in good faith. Those types of people are not welcome here, and I will not coddle and tolerate that.
Anarchists are perfectly fine to me, especially if they are interested in ML or anarchist theory and its nuance. In fact, many are very amicable and come away from the conversation having both learned and taught something.
Internet Anarkiddies on the other hand are an utter waste of time.
I know tone is difficult to convey across text, and I do not mean to come across as vindictive and hostile for no reason. I just will not tolerate a reddit debatebro anarachist, and do not want them here.
Burden of proof? I never claimed anything except “different people have different interpretations,” do you need a source for that? You are extremely desperate for conflict, and I’m not interested.
If you’re willing to engage beyond fallacies, then how do you justify supporting western governments engaged in constant imperialist war and extraction for their capitalist constituents against “authoritarian” countries like Cuba who have actual democracy and put all their resources into helping their people through a brutal embargo (by the us) by providing free and quality education and medicine? [if that is indeed your position, correct me if I’m wrong.]
An important part of ML that we agree upon in theory is that states will inevitably arise as long as the conditions are there for such. Through scientific study we have come to the conclusion that the existence of classes, exploiters and exploited, is the basis of states. A state is a mechanism for the rule of one class over others. If you are an anarchist as you claim, your ultimate goal should be eliminate the state. That is our goal as communists, and our method is a state of the working class used to provide for the needs of the former needs of the exploited while suppressing the exploiters (landlords, capitalists, kulaks, monarchists, fascists), this is what liberals call “authoritarianism.”
I don’t justify all the actions of western governments, and I don’t identify as an anarchist, what I meant was that I agree with some principles of anarchism
This whole thing started when you said “Pretending that there isn’t a spectrum, of governments restricting liberty or expression, isn’t helping anyone.” The type of anarchists criticized by OP are those that say they hate all government yet only criticize enemies of the US. I would agree with what you originally said as in socialist societies are less oppressive to the average person than capitalism (insert Stalin quote:
spoiler
IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO IMAGINE WHAT PERSONAL LIBERTY IS ENJOYED BY AN UNEMPLOYED HUNGRY PERSON. TRUE FREEDOM CAN ONLY BE WHERE THERE IS NO EXPLOITATION AND OPPRESSION OF ONE PERSON BY ANOTHER: WHERE THERE IS NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, AND WHERE A PERSON IS NOT LIVING IN FEAR OF LOSING HIS JOB, HIS HOME AND HIS BREAD. ONLY IN SUCH A SOCIETY PERSONAL AND ANY OTHER FREEDOM CAN EXIST FOR REAL AND NOT ON PAPER.
)
The whole reason why all of us are arguing with you is because you seem to be defending the anarchists we criticize, despite supposedly not agreeing with them.
well the OP image had a whataboutism energy, like “you criticize a state despite all states being bad” and like I said I don’t think that kind of attitude is helping anyone in the context of discussing more or less oppressive governments
It’s not “whataboutism” it’s pointing out contradictions in their internal logic. “I hate all states, but I agree with the US’s foreign policy and hate their enemies specifically.” If someone is against unjust hierarchy they should be primarily anti-capitalist as capitalism is a very “authoritarian” system where one’s boss has autocratic control of their labor power and you don’t have work because the system can’t find need for you you may be condemned to starve. There is also global imperialism, slave (prison) labor and so on. This is the system we should spend our energy opposing as most of us live under it. Also, even if you don’t like Russia or China, if you live in the US your “anti-hierarchical energy” should be spend fighting the US. Especially as they are the global imperialist hegemon and have more bodies to their name than any other government (beside maybe Britain from whom they inherited their system). Even if you oppose Russia too (which is also capitalist), leave it to the Russians to fight Putin.
It’s not a contradiction and it’s not about the United States’ foreign policy, it’s about the differences in restricted expression between states. Would you not agree that a country that has LGBT-free zones are more oppressive than otherwise comparable countries?
You can think all states are authoritarian and acknowledge that some states allow more liberty than others, so bringing up that all states are authoritarian is a whataboutism (“You think that state is particularly authoritarian? But what about the inherent authority of all states?”)
He doesn’t need to do that, actual anarchists have done so already, and if you took the time to read any foundational anarchist theory you would know what the definition is.
The only way anarchism has “different definitions to different people” is if they too were not interested in the theory and instead just the label, which is what this meme is about…
If you actually believed in dismantling unjust hierarchies you would understand that all hierarchies are unjust. Like the political hierarchy of the United States.
Yeah that’s true, I haven’t done any anarchist reading, but I’ve had numerous alleged anarchists explain things differently, so I just said which aspects I agree with.
You might want to consider how much they’ve read too, or what they’ve read. Find yourself an audio book, I know that’s helped me.
What works would you recommend?
Others might have a better answer, so I’ll allow them to make suggestions. My commentary stems from holding similar views on Communism/Socialism, until I decided to actually dive into the theory. I’ve listened to the communist manifesto, and working on listening to Capital currently. I’d like to eventually read Black Shirts and Reds by Parenti. Having a good foundational understanding will help you evaluate our current place and time through the lense of these political ideologies and help avoid simply barking shibboleths at the moon.
Idk if you’re asking about specifically anarchist reading here, if not:
Principles of Communism by Engels is a good essay-length read ( https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm ).
State and Revolution by Lenin is a great first short book length read ( https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ ).
On Authority is Engel’s argument essay against Anarchism and the term “Authoritarian” . That may or may not be up your alley, but you’ll see a lot of that reflected in what we say here ( https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm ).
And just because Mao is rad, “Oppose Book Worship” includes the banger “no investigation, no right to speak” and I like that. ( https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-6/mswv6_11.htm#fn5 ).
If you’re looking for Anarchist theory you could try an Anarchist instance. I think they like Bookchin or something like that.