That’s a common assumption that’s based in “they’re all the same over there” style of racism.
The group the US backed in the 80s was the mujaheddin, which went to form the government which the Taliban (a separate group) all but overthrew. The last remnants of the pre-Taliban Afghanistan government was called the Northern Alliance, which was allied with the US when fighting the Taliban.
It was politically convenient for the left to along with a racist narrative to score cheap political points against Dubya, Cheney, Rumsfeld etcl. And yeah, fuck those guys for sure, but it was wrong to go along with a racist narrative to do so. Because of the “they’re all the same over there” kind of racism in both the left and right of the US, there wasn’t much chance for any kind of success in defeating the Taliban.
The only difference is time IMO. Same people. Same views. Just changed their name and fought against different people for different reasons. They will all still stone you to death for teaching math to women, they just disagree on who should be the caliph.
I actually made a comment about this down below, it’s not a great approach in most cases, but for eg- A serial killer or a rapist, it will show what will happen if you a devalue someone else’s life
Do you think a death penalty for netanyahu unfair, in fact not giving a death penalty is unfair to all the children and women and everyone else he has killed
Do you think a death penalty for netanyahu unfair, in fact not giving a death penalty is unfair to all the children and women and everyone else he has killed
Fair? What does fair mean? Does an execution un-kill the victims? What a ridiculous notion that any sort of punishment for a perpetrator could be “fair” for the victims.
The death penalty is an abject failure. It has no benefits and numerous issues. Practicing barbarism can never be justice.
it definitely will make other people think twice before they do the same thing
There is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.
There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals. According to the National Academy of Sciences, “Research on the deterrent effect of capital punishment is uninformative about whether capital punishment increases, decreases, or has no effect on homicide rates.”
I honestly don’t like to trust a country where you can get away for being a literal child rapist, but the above is just my opinion, we don’t even need evidence to know that the standard strawberry method of giving them merely some jailtime is not working either, but whatever, I am not a law expert
I believe that most developed countries have gotten rid of the death penalty, and a big part of that is because it doesn’t work as a deterrent.
Very few people decide whether or not to commit a crime based on the punishment. Most criminals think they won’t get caught at all, or if they do, they think they’ll get away with it in court.
This slightly misses the mark. The majority of crimes, including violent ones, are not committed by people performing a risk calculus. They’re done with minimal thought and more often than not in the heat of the moment. Effectively, they are not crimes that you can deter because for a crime to be deterred, the potential criminal has to assess whether it makes sense to commit the crime. This works in cases of like financial fraud and white collar crime. Someone shooting another person during an altercation, not so much.
Thanks here for this comment, I feel like I see where my stance might not make sense, ofc death penalty should not be given in cases like this where emotion takes over, I am rather taking about ppl like trump and gates and Netanyahu who are completely sane, they just kill for their own benefit
Ppl here have assumed that just because I said ‘I see reason’ means I feel like you need to kill everyone who commits this, No, I am saying that I don’t know the exact circumstance, it might or might not be justified, I hope we can clear this up moving forward
Yeah there’s a way to deter crimes and it’s increasing the certainty of punishment. Overly severe punishment actually has an unwanted effect of increasing the severity of crimes. If a rapist is going to die if caught that incentivizes murdering the victim who is inherently a witness.
That is my point, anyone who commits this should be always caught and be given the penalty, they should not be able to get away, no matter they are rich are poor
And what level of certainty do you need? Keep in mind uncertainty means innocents are murdered by the state and 100% certainty is difficult enough that it will generally put you into the anti capital punishment camp.
Also it sounds like you have a failure of understanding how the rich get out of punishment. Yes sometimes it’s like Brock Turner where it’s blatant. But other times it’s because they can afford the means to hide evidence and sow doubts. And when all else fails they’re more likely to have ins with judges or the ability to flee preemptively.
No matter what follows this…yes, we do. You should need evidence to believe anything; understanding of course that the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needed.
giving them merely some jailtime is not working either, but whatever
Then imprison them for life. Guess what, life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty, and can be overturned if there’s an error.
Yes, we should also be addressing the failings of our penal system(s). Unfortunately, many around the world, and clearly yourself included, are more interested in retributive “justice” than habilitative functions.
That is the same thinking that those who own hand guns think. They think they will be safer, yet all the stats indicate other wise including all the children accidentally firing a gun and killing a family member. If risk of death was a deterrent, the USA would be among the safest place in the world.
I am not saying you should just order a public execution whenever you want, the judges should decide in which case it’s suitable, you won’t want to kill someone because they accidentally ran over someone, but for a child rapist?, make an example out of them, I am not saying everyone should have a say in whether this sort of punishment should be made or not, only judges with a lot of experience, unlike the america gun issue where anyone can just go up and buy a gun relatively easily
I used the search functionality, they have a degree in criminology, history, and law.
I don’t know how common that combo is, neither do I want to cast doubt on this person’s comments… but it doesn’t help that the majority of them defy logic at every turn.
Just yesterday, @JustZ@lemmy.world told me they know more than South Africa about apartheid, and thus Israel cannot be an undemocratic apartheid state. They also told me that when America didn’t allow women and black people to vote, it was “still a democracy”. But they also said that an apartheid rule is when a minority has control over a majority (this is the only definition they offered)… that would mean, by @JustZ@lemmy.world’s own definition, that America before suffrage for women and black people was an apartheid state.
I deleted my comment due to some drama, but I remember also having pretty long conversations with this guy, who thinks that just because hamas exists, Israel is free to genocide
Youre a moron and have no idea what you’re talking about. Please stop tagging me. I don’t care what you have to say any longer.
You post irrelevant links constantly, you lie about what they say, you lie about what you think I said, and it’s exhausting to try and correct you. I’m not your dad or your teacher so kindly fuck off and leave me alone. Do you understand?
I will admit that part of my mind would support making a public example of any fascist leader, but any public execution or punishment serves only to normalize that violence.
Would I condemn anyone involved with the death of Mussolini? Absolutely not. Best of luck to any Israeli anti fascists in the right time and place.
I feel like the problem is that we make emotional decisions, what might seem fair to us might not seem fair to the victims family and vice versa, I feel like I will let the authorities be the one to decide and respect it, I don’t think you normalize violence by a public execution though, instead you instill a feeling of fear in the public about what would happen if you do such a serious crime
Taliban does a lot wrong, but I can get behind the logic on this kind of thing if I am honest, I feel instead maybe the victims family should be given a choice? Idk
you instill a feeling of fear in the public about what would happen if you do such a serious crime
Do you think the members of the general public are often considering committing those kinds of crimes?
“Gee whiz, I sure wish I could be a serial killer. Too bad they publicly executed that last serial killer, though! I’d better move to the US, where executions are done in private!”
I feel you don’t understand what I am trying to say, but what I am trying is that just one example will probably drop the rate faster than bitcoins value, see places like saudi arabia where crimes are law just because of these laws existing, even if they are not enforced
And no people won’t get violent, that’s like saying people will get violent by seeing a school shooting, it’s not like a person will get hanged everyday, atmost it might be something like every 5 years, especially if they make it somewhat negotiable with the victims family
It does not reduce murder or crime in general - but it DOES devalue human life
At least they retained the USamerican values after kicking them out
The Taliban were assholes long before 9/11.
The Taliban were US-backed and US-funded long before 9/11.
That’s a common assumption that’s based in “they’re all the same over there” style of racism.
The group the US backed in the 80s was the mujaheddin, which went to form the government which the Taliban (a separate group) all but overthrew. The last remnants of the pre-Taliban Afghanistan government was called the Northern Alliance, which was allied with the US when fighting the Taliban.
It was politically convenient for the left to along with a racist narrative to score cheap political points against Dubya, Cheney, Rumsfeld etcl. And yeah, fuck those guys for sure, but it was wrong to go along with a racist narrative to do so. Because of the “they’re all the same over there” kind of racism in both the left and right of the US, there wasn’t much chance for any kind of success in defeating the Taliban.
It’s not racist to be aware of the fact that the US supported the Taliban after the fall of the Mujaheddin.
The only difference is time IMO. Same people. Same views. Just changed their name and fought against different people for different reasons. They will all still stone you to death for teaching math to women, they just disagree on who should be the caliph.
Yes that “they’re all the same over there” is a common opinion.
Can’t win a war when you can’t tell the difference between friend or foe. Which is why the US lost to the Taliban.
I suppose they think something similar about your govt
Yeah, so? There are many assholes in the world, you know. Pointing at some other group of assholes doesn’t make the Taliban not assholes.
Very insightfull. Is that a quote from Nietzsche?
I actually made a comment about this down below, it’s not a great approach in most cases, but for eg- A serial killer or a rapist, it will show what will happen if you a devalue someone else’s life
Do you think a death penalty for netanyahu unfair, in fact not giving a death penalty is unfair to all the children and women and everyone else he has killed
Any cases.
Fair? What does fair mean? Does an execution un-kill the victims? What a ridiculous notion that any sort of punishment for a perpetrator could be “fair” for the victims.
The death penalty is an abject failure. It has no benefits and numerous issues. Practicing barbarism can never be justice.
It doesn’t unkill the victims but it definitely will make other people think twice before they do the same thing
There is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.
US Department of Justice
I honestly don’t like to trust a country where you can get away for being a literal child rapist, but the above is just my opinion, we don’t even need evidence to know that the standard strawberry method of giving them merely some jailtime is not working either, but whatever, I am not a law expert
I believe that most developed countries have gotten rid of the death penalty, and a big part of that is because it doesn’t work as a deterrent.
Very few people decide whether or not to commit a crime based on the punishment. Most criminals think they won’t get caught at all, or if they do, they think they’ll get away with it in court.
This slightly misses the mark. The majority of crimes, including violent ones, are not committed by people performing a risk calculus. They’re done with minimal thought and more often than not in the heat of the moment. Effectively, they are not crimes that you can deter because for a crime to be deterred, the potential criminal has to assess whether it makes sense to commit the crime. This works in cases of like financial fraud and white collar crime. Someone shooting another person during an altercation, not so much.
Thanks here for this comment, I feel like I see where my stance might not make sense, ofc death penalty should not be given in cases like this where emotion takes over, I am rather taking about ppl like trump and gates and Netanyahu who are completely sane, they just kill for their own benefit
Ppl here have assumed that just because I said ‘I see reason’ means I feel like you need to kill everyone who commits this, No, I am saying that I don’t know the exact circumstance, it might or might not be justified, I hope we can clear this up moving forward
Yeah there’s a way to deter crimes and it’s increasing the certainty of punishment. Overly severe punishment actually has an unwanted effect of increasing the severity of crimes. If a rapist is going to die if caught that incentivizes murdering the victim who is inherently a witness.
That is my point, anyone who commits this should be always caught and be given the penalty, they should not be able to get away, no matter they are rich are poor
And what level of certainty do you need? Keep in mind uncertainty means innocents are murdered by the state and 100% certainty is difficult enough that it will generally put you into the anti capital punishment camp.
Also it sounds like you have a failure of understanding how the rich get out of punishment. Yes sometimes it’s like Brock Turner where it’s blatant. But other times it’s because they can afford the means to hide evidence and sow doubts. And when all else fails they’re more likely to have ins with judges or the ability to flee preemptively.
No matter what follows this…yes, we do. You should need evidence to believe anything; understanding of course that the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needed.
Then imprison them for life. Guess what, life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty, and can be overturned if there’s an error.
Anyone who has spend a week in jail knows that life imprisonment is much much worse than death penalty
Yes, we should also be addressing the failings of our penal system(s). Unfortunately, many around the world, and clearly yourself included, are more interested in retributive “justice” than habilitative functions.
Crime is decreasing year after year except during the pandemic. What do you mean it’s not working?
That is the same thinking that those who own hand guns think. They think they will be safer, yet all the stats indicate other wise including all the children accidentally firing a gun and killing a family member. If risk of death was a deterrent, the USA would be among the safest place in the world.
I am not saying anyone should be able to give a death penalty, the judges should be able to, not teens or children
Can you rephrase as I am not understanding your point I think.
I am not saying you should just order a public execution whenever you want, the judges should decide in which case it’s suitable, you won’t want to kill someone because they accidentally ran over someone, but for a child rapist?, make an example out of them, I am not saying everyone should have a say in whether this sort of punishment should be made or not, only judges with a lot of experience, unlike the america gun issue where anyone can just go up and buy a gun relatively easily
I have a degree in criminology and there is no truth to this. People don’t ever rationally decide to do crimes.
Do you really have a degree in criminology? What kind of lawyer are you exactly?
deleted by creator
I used the search functionality, they have a degree in criminology, history, and law. I don’t know how common that combo is, neither do I want to cast doubt on this person’s comments… but it doesn’t help that the majority of them defy logic at every turn.
Just yesterday, @JustZ@lemmy.world told me they know more than South Africa about apartheid, and thus Israel cannot be an undemocratic apartheid state. They also told me that when America didn’t allow women and black people to vote, it was “still a democracy”. But they also said that an apartheid rule is when a minority has control over a majority (this is the only definition they offered)… that would mean, by @JustZ@lemmy.world’s own definition, that America before suffrage for women and black people was an apartheid state.
I deleted my comment due to some drama, but I remember also having pretty long conversations with this guy, who thinks that just because hamas exists, Israel is free to genocide
Youre a moron and have no idea what you’re talking about. Please stop tagging me. I don’t care what you have to say any longer.
You post irrelevant links constantly, you lie about what they say, you lie about what you think I said, and it’s exhausting to try and correct you. I’m not your dad or your teacher so kindly fuck off and leave me alone. Do you understand?
https://lemmy.world/comment/7897946
I will admit that part of my mind would support making a public example of any fascist leader, but any public execution or punishment serves only to normalize that violence.
Would I condemn anyone involved with the death of Mussolini? Absolutely not. Best of luck to any Israeli anti fascists in the right time and place.
I feel like the problem is that we make emotional decisions, what might seem fair to us might not seem fair to the victims family and vice versa, I feel like I will let the authorities be the one to decide and respect it, I don’t think you normalize violence by a public execution though, instead you instill a feeling of fear in the public about what would happen if you do such a serious crime
Taliban does a lot wrong, but I can get behind the logic on this kind of thing if I am honest, I feel instead maybe the victims family should be given a choice? Idk
Do you think the members of the general public are often considering committing those kinds of crimes?
“Gee whiz, I sure wish I could be a serial killer. Too bad they publicly executed that last serial killer, though! I’d better move to the US, where executions are done in private!”
I feel you don’t understand what I am trying to say, but what I am trying is that just one example will probably drop the rate faster than bitcoins value, see places like saudi arabia where crimes are law just because of these laws existing, even if they are not enforced
And no people won’t get violent, that’s like saying people will get violent by seeing a school shooting, it’s not like a person will get hanged everyday, atmost it might be something like every 5 years, especially if they make it somewhat negotiable with the victims family