The US is supporting Israel through what we can mostly all agree is a genocide of the Gazans. Clearly, Biden isn’t a genocidal maniac, yet he’s all in with unwavering support. Why are we doing this? There has to be a logical reason that isn’t just “we want Israel to kill everyone in Gaza and take their land a la lebensraum.”
We know this is an emotional topic, so please be respectful of each other so that we can have open and clear authentic discussion on the matter.
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The answer is simple and almost no one gets it: The U.S. will NEVER give up a military foothold in the middle east. They will ignore every atrocity Israel commits if it means we have a place to sortie from.
That’s it.
It’s not a religious conspiracy, it’s not about back room money deals.
It’s about military power and our ability to strike anywhere in the world with 2 hours notice.
This is the most simple answer and the truth. Not only that, but our hands are generally tied to a fault when it comes to these allies. This is why Biden has had some words to say, but there’s no actual teeth to them. He literally can’t do shit. Any other administration would be the same.
Well, Trump might do something because he’s willing to break any and all precedents … but the something he does would likely be much worse, impulsive, and generally lacking much forethought.
Yeah but that won’t prevent every fuckdamn armchair admiral from weighing in with their wikipedia based knowledge.
The problem is that those trolls are significantly out-shouting the truth.
No he CAN do something, he can say fuck you, and let someone else run while he does the right thing regardless of the cost to his career
It wouldn’t be the cost to his career, it would be the loss of military access to the most volatile place on the planet.
Do you even bother understanding the concepts you comment on?
We have other bases in the Middle East, we don’t need them for a foothold.
We can walk in, whip our dick out and ask who wants to be our new friend and under our protection.
Israel is ignoring us anyway so I see no harm.
Fall in line or fuck around and find out when we allow them to be outlaws and retract our protection.
Sends a message while we are at it.
… there is literally no military strategist in our armed forces that agree with your assessment.
Please don’t mistake your wikipedia education for a nuanced and in-depth understanding.
Because they have no intention of changing anything why would they look for another way?
They all keep getting rich off backroom deals with weapon companies
The U.S. will NEVER give up a military foothold in the middle east.
They will, only once all the oil’s been extracted, which will take some decades yet.
While it’s not a religious conspiracy, there is plenty of religious support from certain christian denominations, on the USA and other countries, because of some weird interpretation of the bible about Israelis getting their “promised land” back.
It’s not only about oil. I mean sure, some of it is but even without oil they’d want military access simply because of how much a hotspot it is.
I already told you this has nothing to do with religion and the fact you believe this means your sources aren’t trustworthy.
Oh, you mean that people who use religion to preach support for isreal aren’t real? The pastors in my country that do that during the cults and on TV must be a figment of my imagination, then!
And exactly what kind of impact do you think those religious nuts have on our top military brass’s positions?
I find it funny that you moved the goalposts so readily. I don’t have time for intellectually dishonest people.
I never implied said religious support happened at or was directed at the top of the hierarchy, political or military. Why you came to that conclusion eludes me. Let me quote myself:
there is plenty of religious support from certain christian denominations, on the USA and other countries, because of some weird interpretation of the bible about Israelis getting their “promised land” back.
My intent was pointing out that this is to generate public support. But I guess I’m the one “moving the goalposts” and being “intellectually dishonest” because I’m not replying to what you thought I was saying implicitly. Next thing you’ll tell me I’m trying to squirrel out of what you’re wrongfully accusing me of.
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This alliance allows the US to maintain a stronger foothold in the Middle East and exert hegemonic power via proxy.
This isn’t the only reason, of course, but it’s part of it.
And the US wants a foothold in the middle east because oil.
I don’t think the US isn’t interested in the oil opportunities in the Middle East, but I think the US wants a foothold everywhere and anywhere across the globe to maintain its position as a global superpower.
Also oil.
Well, that and keeping
the USSRRussia and China outYes, the US wants that foothold because of oil. It’s not because we wish to become rich off it, it’s because oil is essential to keeping our economy stable. Keeping the region stable, or at least “stable” in America’s best interests, is paramount.
Doesn’t matter what anyone’s opinion on our oil consumption is, even in the face of global warming. At this point in time, we need it.
Without oil our economy plummets and that affects the whole world. And we can’t fix it anytime soon. I’m seeing hope, but it’s painfully slow. FFS, trying to fix this mess bucks the richest interests on the planet. And if we guillotined every one of them, we’d still be in the same place.
I see a lot of talk around here calling talk of the “economy” bullshit, like those numbers only affect the rich, and fuck 'em. Like it or not, we all participate in the economy.
In turn, we’re all hurt if it crashes. And that includes the rest of the world. Anyone here old enough to remember the gas station lines after the Iranian revolution?
And spare me talk of coulda/shoula/woulda. America could have done a dozen things better to avoid all this. We didn’t. And here we are.
In case you didn’t notice, many people are in the middle of the crash right now. So yeah, it’s going to suck for everyone, but what are the alternatives?
Read a lot of answers and yours is succinct.
Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.
~ Alexander Haig
critical region for American national security.
The rest was true but this one is complete BS
+Palestinians are not as white and a religious minority on top of it
That and Israel wouldn’t hesitate a second before switching sides and allying with Russia and/or China.
The US supports plenty of fucked up countries because we gain something from them. In the same way Saudi Arabia supplies us oil, Israel provides an American stronghold in the middle east to operate out of. With the political importance and violent instability of the middle east the US finds Israel a necessity to its ambitions.
Let’s be honest, there’s a shit ton of money involved as well. From campaign donations to the military industrial complex, people are getting paid by Israel and jewish persons. They have a powerful lobby and influential people around the nation.
Also worth noting Israel is very advanced with respect to cybersecurity. Considering they provide tools like Pegasus to US intelligence agencies, I’m sure the agencies value this relationship very much.
Oh and Prilosec is made in Israel I believe.
Domestically within USA there are plentiful of issues. These can be seen as opportunities for collaboration & create solutions.
Honest/ Legit Question; Why not refocus efforts, resources, skills with experience on improving their own country in various ways? There are so much value to be gained, instead of utilizing so much resources in other regions/ countries - that don’t welcome them.
Why bother being involved in Middle East, when if they actually work/ utilize similar amounts of resources within their borders, the country as a whole could reach results that would envy others. Isn’t that what patriotism means? There are plethora of opportunities to be gained! But it’s being so neglected.
In transportation, health, education, nature, finances (solving various debts), jobs, scientific explorations, improved overall living, safety, etc…
Biden said it himself back in the day, its a foothold in the Middle East, “if israel did not exist we would need to create an israel” im paraphrasing but the clip is on YouTube
Everyone that understands military doctrine would understand that one of the main purposes of Israel was to act as a staging ground to extend power throughout the middle east. There is also a sizeable voting block of christians that place special emphasis on the formation and continued support of Israel.
This is the only correct answer here. Everything else is just uneducated and emotional ramblings.
Why do we need a foothold there?
There are oceans between us and our enemies.
Let’s just fucking leave and let them come to us
Same reason why Pearl Harbor was a thing. Reaction time, faster reach, strategic location, etc.
Or we can use one of the many many other bases we have around there, like the one in jordan
I am more curious as to why these completely legal (non rule breaking or trolling comments) are being deleted by lemmy moderation. My app shows removed comments.
If you think you are seeing what people really think of the conflict on this site, you are not. Agendas are being pushed
We need more transparency and community engagement. I think instead of someone being banned or their comment being removed, it should go up for a vote between a random selection of users.
Sort of like the criminal justice system. Be judged by a jury of your peers. Not just some arbitrary official who decides your fate and you have zero recourse.
Sorry I’m really bad at reading between the lines, what’s the agenda being pushed?
It was getting a bit too based. People are stating to realize that there is very little difference between israel and the Nazi’s expanding their Lebensraum.
After that, you ask the question if fighting back against Nazi’s is justified, but answering that is not allowed yet.
Fighting back against Nazis is the only correct response.
https://www.aipac.org/ is an influential lobbying organization. Your elected leaders listen to influential lobbying organizations.
Money
The simplest and most concise answer.
We also like to support the only democracy in the middle East. But yeah, mostly money / self interest.
1 trillion dollars and countless American lives to bring democracy to Iraq, and people still trotting out the “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East” line.
Israel is a military toehold in the region. Israel desperately needs our help, so we help Israel because it allows us to have someone who desperately needs our help in the region.
Without US money there’d be no Iron Dome. There’d be no Israel of any kind. Israel needs the US, and that is why we chose Israel as our local ally.
From Machiavelli’s The Prince:
The Romans, in the countries which they annexed, observed closely these measures; they sent colonies and maintained friendly relations with[2] the minor powers, without increasing their strength; they kept down the greater, and did not allow any strong foreign powers to gain authority
Considering a selfish, manipulative, ahem Machiavellian worldview, the reason the US supports Israel is because Israel is the local minor power, which can only become the local major power with our help.
With US help, Israel is on top over there. Without it, Israel is a minor power. That is why Israel, specifically, gets our military investments.
Israel does not need our help, they could easily defend themselves against their neighbor and as a nuclear armed country they know the US will jump in to defend them.
A country of less than 9.5 million people cannot afford to fund the occupation and blockade of 5.5 million Palestinians alone, still less make all the weapons required.
They don’t need to, they just need to verify their Sampson defense and no one would dare attempt an invasion, it’s quite literally the only reason their country isn’t a smouldering crater.
You’re not wrong about the nukes. You’re wrong about Israel not needing support from the US to continue existing in its current form, which is the point I addressed.
In the early decades, they flirted with the USSR to keep the US onside. The nuclear threat now performs at least some of the same blackmail. But the blackmail is necessary because this is a tiny country keeping millions of people under brutal occupation. It is not physically possible for Israel to have the Occupation without bucketloads of funding from a superpower.
Because while “what we can mostly all agree” to that, Biden does not think that Israel is engaged in genocide.
Just because a group of people perceive something to be the absolute truth, doesn’t mean everyone interpret reality the same way.
Because Isreal is a leading military power in the Middle East. They are Western in most of their views and the US can deal with them. You can’t say the same about any of the other Middle Eastern nations.
Israel is coming down hard on Gaza and Hamas to make an example of them. They are going to send that strip back to the Stone Age. This operation is a statement, “this is what happens when you fuck with us. “
No other Middle Eastern powers give a shit about Gaza. They make noises to appease their populations. But no other Nation has offered direct military assistance or action.
In short it would be stupid to drop Israel as an ally over this.
God forbid we stop calling someone an ally when they kill 20,000 people in less than 6 months
Look, I agree that Isreal needs to do more to protect Gazan citizens. And to deal with the present situation you need to ignore about 2000 years of history. With that said, when your neighbor is a terrorist group with the EXPLICIT AIM of eradicating the state of Israel, and they launch indiscriminate terrorist attacks on you, and deliberately hide among civilian populations to maximize casualties, what are your options except a land invasion to remove them from power, even though you know there will be civilian deaths?
I mean you could start by not shooting aid trucks, killing people with their hands up and shirts off, not blowing up ambulances on their way to save six year olds.
That’s just me though
War always has civilian deaths. It’s an unfortunate consequence.
This is different. Gaza is being flattened by the indiscriminate bombing. Its ridiculous.
It’s not ridiculous. It’s the point. Lives are the currency. Hamas has one value Israel has another. The exchange rate is far from even.
Morality doesn’t exist on the scale of nations.
Because Israel helped the US a ton during the cold war. Mossad are pretty good at what they do, and what they did a lot of was spying on Moscow.
Except when it comes to defending their own country from their technologically inferior neighbor.
Roughly 4 out of 5 companies I’ve seen that have received investments in my industry in the past 5 years have been Israel R&D startup companies.
Not my wheel house, but if I had to guess, the ruling class in the states has a lot of investments tied up in Israel.
Take with a grain of salt, as this is just an anecdotal observation.
I like how you add error bars to your statement. More people should post like that.
They have historic ties and Israel is an important strategic ally in the middle east for the US.
I think this issue is also more nuanced than you’ll see it given credit for in the media.
I think there’s some strong “War in Iraq” parallels that can be drawn that might help reflect why the US is reacting the way they are.
To summarize, small group of terrorists commit an attack that is one of the worst in the nations history. This country that was attacked has a much better funded military, and they roll in to exact retribution, notionally under the banner of “stopping the people who did this and not letting it happen again.” The war of revenge is hugely detrimental to the civilian population therein, and human rights violations occur.
Most establishment politicians were/are fully on board with the War in Iraq. Why wouldn’t they be on board with Israel right now? It’s basically the same situation again.
I think that a lot of what you see online forgets that this wasn’t some random thing where Israel just decided to commit a genocide out of nowhere. But just like how 9/11 didn’t justify the War in Iraq, 10/7 doesn’t justify what’s happening now. But it’s somewhat understandable why it’s happening, and why people support it.
I remember right after 9/11, the vast majority of people were on board with sending troops in. The dissenters were super few and far between. This is just that again, but Israel this time.
Iraq didn’t have anything to do with 9-11. I think you mean Afghanistan.
You are technically correct. The best kind of correct. :)
I was using “The War in Iraq” as a cover term for the whole ongoing conflict that arose in the aftermath of 9/11.
I think that your point actually furthers my parallel though. As the US was in Afghanistan, the Bush Administration’s obsession with Iraq ended up with them pushing questionable Intel that there were Al Queda controlled WMDs in Iraq, and that we had to invade there as well if we really wanted to win the war.
There’s a pretty clear parallel between that logic and the “Hamas Tunnels” arguments we’re hearing out of Israel at the moment.
One day they will release the full uncut and unedited videos of the tunnels so we can see where they all started, ran, and ended.
Probably any day now with how good the deepfakes are getting
Understand this, all reading this thread, though:
The DarkHexad of human-evil’s dimensions, is:
- Narcissism
- Machiavellianism
- Sociopathy ( mentally/experientially induced ) / Psychopathy ( intrinsic defective mirror-neurons function, NO empathy, NO other is “human” )
- Nihilism
- Sadism
- SystemicDishonesty
The more abused some population is, the more they become embedded in DarkHexad mind/meaning.
Hamas went nihilist.
They knew that Israel’d commit to genociding all Palestinians, to all the extent they could, and that’s why they did the attack.
Israel’s now is demonstrating its nihilism/sadism so blatently that their “deterrent” is being permanently corroded-away:
Within a few years, the surrounding Muslim region won’t care how much damage/violence Israel does to them while they’re annihilating Israel, they’ll HAVE TO annihilate Israel, at ANY cost.
Israel’s guaranteeing its own within-decade annihilation.
Exactly as Hamas’ ( either unconsciously or consciously ) strategy determined.
Israel walked into the trap, they ate the bait.
2 millenia ago, the ONLY Jew in the world that no Zionist would tolerate to have any validity, Yehoshua “Jesus” benJoseph, warned that when the abomination Daniel spoke-of was becoming real, that Israel would be annihilated.
( Matt 24, iirc … here, I dug it up, just in case anybody wants to read the actual text: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt+24%3A15-22&version=AMPC )
Perfect & correct warning.
Within 1 decade, Israel’s going to be annihilated, exactly as benJoseph warned, and the Zionists, themselves, are the ones enforcing that no alternative-future can happen.
Comical, really: one’s-own ideology/prejudice absolutely determining one’s fate, in a way that makes one’s most-hated-individual proven-right.
“Deterrent” only works when the ones hating your life are hesitating because of their aversion to the harm you can do them.
Israel’s not going to have any “deterrent” soon.
And they’re too ideology/prejudice rabid to know that simple human-nature meaning.
When, in a decade, perhaps less, Israel’s been annihilated, how is the rest of the Middle East, now committed/allied with BRICS, going to tilt the world’s geopolitical table?
No matter: Trump’s already said he’ll “delete” the constitution, leave NATO, back Russia, create crime in Washington DC, be dictator, & “MAGA”, right?
That is going to happen, unfortunately, and the incompetence of the Biden-institution is playing directly into handing the entire US into Trump-cult’s hands.
The economic rug-pull that they’re delaying can’t be held-back forever, either.
Backlash-vote always torpedoes the incumbents, in that situation.
It doesn’t even matter if legalism “prohibits” Trump becoming GEOTUS, now: legalists ignore all the letter-of-the-law that contradicts their intention, …
… and that is sooo traditional for legalists that benJoseph railed against their doing that 2 millenia ago.
Something like “you who hold the letter-of-the-law rules, who ignore even 1 part, are guilty of ALL”, iirc.
That is exactly the nature of the legalism of nowadays.
The real game going-on is that human-unconscious-ignorance is trying to enforce a simplistic “mythic” “importance” through global tantrum/pogrom.
And arguing with humanity’s unconscious-toddler … requires a bit of rather-brutal experience-induced-understanding enforcement, and that isn’t going to happen until “armageddon” has beaten that understanding into our unconscious.
The Great Filter.
Won’t-grow-up is the most-fundamental religion, in our unconscious.
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They want an ally in the middle east? A bunch of countries in that area don’t like them.
