Celebrating the confederacy is wrong, but I also think museum-like stuff and graveyards are harmless and should be respected. First of all, not everyone who served had much of a choice. Many were expected to serve on one side or the other merely because of where they lived. This is true of much of history. Second, they’re dead. It’s over for these specific people. They’re not a current problem. It’s just disrespectful no matter who it is.
I am NOT defending anything confederate, but I know that nuance is lost on most people.
I’m in total agreement, and have visited many union and confederate historical sites (graveyards, prisons, battlefields), which have been invaluable sources of information.
I broadly agree, but would point out that the huge number of statues erected during the civil rights era, celebrating people that led a traitorous war to defend slavery have little to no historical value, and were put in place to send a message echoing what those confederate leaders fought for.
We teach about the Nazis without celebrating them - I don’t see why the Confederates should be any different.
I don’t see any statues in this photo. Nobody here is talking about celebrating the Confederate soldiers, only suggesting that their graves shouldn’t be pissed on.
If you don’t think statues are covered under the umbrella of “museum-like stuff” and aren’t relevant to a conversation about what public relics of the Confederacy should be preserved, that’s a you issue, my guy.
Maybe you missed the point of my comment. I agree with you that Confederate statues erected during the civil rights movement are an affront to everything we stand for as a nation. I agree that they should be torn down wherever they exist.
I also don’t understand what any of that has to do with a photo of unmarked Confederate graves. Or how it would in any way justify pissing on them.
It has everything to do with the thread I responded to. Is there a reason you took issue with my reference to statues, but not other people with far more upvotes responding to the same comment in the same thread talking about battlefields, prisons, and houses?
I’d suggest you go back and read what we were all replying to - I’m clearly not the only one that doesn’t think this whole conversation needs to be restricted to the pissing on the graves in the photo.
Again, this is a you issue.
Would make a meme about pissing on the grave of someone that served in the Wehrmacht?
Would I? Yes.
Their ghost either understands and agrees, or they don’t and deserve it.
What’s pissing on Wermacht graves got to do with modern, politically motivated Confederate statues and teaching about the Confederacy responsibly in a similar manner to the way we teach about the Nazis?
I’m sorry to say that I think you got a little over-excited about your gotcha and blew your wad early.
You should probably check the meme in the OP for context if you’re having trouble figuring out how pissing on a Wehrmacht grave is connected
If you’ve got an issue with what OP shared, why would you bring it to me?
I don’t have a problem with what OP shared.
You pointed out how we don’t glorify Nazis. I was simply wondering if you would make a meme about peeing on German graves the way that OP made a meme about peeing on Confederate graves.
Im just trying to understand your position.
I’m not big on making memes, so no.
Do I think there’s equivalent moral culpability between the average vermacht and confederate soldier? Unsure - it’s a nuanced question I’m not well positioned to answer.
Would I piss on either? Probably not. Rupert Murdoch is my priority on that front.
I’ve been to this cemetery and house—the staff are beyond amazing when it comes to putting things into context. There’s even a giant sign before you enter that says something to the effect “Take a moment of somber silence before you enter, humans were enslaved here.” They’ve also done a lot of work with local black historians to try and trace the genealogy of slaves from the plantation and restore the slave quarters to show how horrific it all was.
statuses should be dismantled or at least stored away in some museum, we shouldn’t treat them like heroes
Please don’t actually disrespect these graves.
Jokes are jokes
Yeah, until idiots on the Internet start taking them literally. See: 4chan.
See also: [gestures broadly at American politics]
So, we shouldn’t say or do anything because some fucking moron will inevitably take it literally?? This is a meme sub ffs
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And how many of those corpses were poor white trash duped into fighting to preserve a rich man’s status quo?
I’m betting 98%.
Without looking and never studying American history, I bet >3% of the confederate soldiers were black slave soldiers fighting because their “owners” made them…
You’d be wrong. Few things terrified the white southern aristocracy as much as the prospect of armed black folk. There was a black militia in Louisiana which, inexplicably*, offered its services to the Confederacy. The Confederacy quite vehemently declined.
*well, not really inexplicably, but getting into race relations in former colonial French holdings and tbqh I don’t feel like going through that right now
That’s actually fascinating. I knew there were free black soldiers in the Union, but none in the south is mind boggling.
Our history classes coverage of the US civil war was basically: “we don’t want that fighting shit up here, so provinces were given less power, and we joined together because we needed to be able to defend ourselves in case the Union invades us.”
I think there was a last-ditch effort like, right before the South lost the war where they authorized black soldiers, but I don’t think they ever saw combat. May not have even been mustered and trained. But it was like a month or two before the war ended.
You know, I’ve been conflicted about this subject for a while. You see, my grandfather’s great grandfather was a confederate soldier. He was injured and sent back home to Alabama where he helped people during a cholera outbreak.
He was a complicated man without whom I wouldn’t be here. Was he racist? I’m sure he was. That wasn’t unusual back then for the north or the south.
Race relations are complicated everywhere. Not just in the south. Hell, not just in the USA. We lack the proper words in the English language to explain just how fucking awful slavery is. Slavery is abhorrent. Slavery is repugnant. Yet those descriptors don’t seem to properly convey just how fucked up slavery is. But believe it or not in the eyes of history that’s kind of a new take.
I’m sure that a lot of people will not appreciate what I’ve said, and that’s ok. I decided that the racism in my family stops at me. My kids have never met my family. Instead I tell my kids about the lessons I learned from the parental figures I collected like Pokémon. Like Ronnie if any of you read that comment a while back.
But also, when I was a kid, every Memorial Day we would go to the cemetery where a lot of my family is buried. We’d put flowers on everyone’s graves including a confederate soldier. Not because he was racist, but because he was family. For better or for worse.
But believe it or not in the eyes of history that’s kind of a new take.
That is not, in any way, a new take. That was very much the take at the time, even among certain slaveholders. For example, here’s Thomas Jefferson, a famous slaveholder, talking about the subject of slavery:
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever: that, considering numbers, nature, and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest.
Here he is, saying that God hates slavery, that slavers richly deserve death by the hands of their enslaved populace, and that slavery is a great injustice. All this while having about 200 slaves himself, including several of his own children.
Slavery is not now, and was not back then, a “complicated issue”. It wasn’t a moral gray area. It was a great evil perpetrated by incredibly evil people. Whether or not the slavers themselves thought that they were doing evil is irrelevant. All this hand wringing about “Oh, the times were different back then!” is complete hogwash. Do you think that abolitionists didn’t exist? That they didn’t tell people that slavery was evil even as the first American colonists adopted the practice? Do you think that the people back then were some kind of proto-human who didn’t have the capacity for empathy or morality?
Fuck that. Your grandfather’s great grandfather fought for and defended evil. He picked the wrong side. Oh, he helped some people who were sick? Bully for him. He was still a fucking prick. Fuck him forever.
Obligatory: https://youtu.be/FAZJVkelgcg
God, I fucking love that man. <3
Knew it was this before I ever clicked the link
“I mean they visibly didn’t like it”
They are dead and gone. What ever feelings the dirt and stone provoke are your own. The dead flowers too are only for yourself. Me, I despise the unempethic people who brought suffering to others. They did live in a different time and any one person alone couldn’t have done enough to change all of society. If I’m going out of my way to honor a thought in my head I would chose to honor the few that did put society on the right track.
My extended family’s ancestors stole land from indigenous people that their descendants sold to provide a comfortable upper middle class life for their family. Fuck them for destroying the livelihood, culture and lives of those people. If people want to piss on their graves I wouldn’t stop them.
I think this is rather distasteful.
Whatever side they fought on it would do well to remember that these people too have their stories. How many were dragged in to fight in the meat grinder, no matter their opinions?
Even German graves from WWII are typically left alone because they already paid the ultimate price.
Edit: if anything, this should serve as a reminder what war really is and why we should always avoid it if we can
There’s an old saying that the Civil War was “a rich man’s war, but a poor man’s fight”.
The National Parks Service put this together, and I think it really shows the people who died were fighting for a variety of reasons. It doesn’t mean we should glorify the Confederacy, but the people in that cemetery deserve their peace.
https://www.nps.gov/apco/planyourvisit/upload/Why-Confederates-Fought-Final.pdf
Rush Limbaugh’s grave, on the other hand, will always be a gender-neutral bathroom.
Even German graves from WWII are typically left alone because they already paid the ultimate price.
Jesus fucking Christ.
If John Bell Hood had had his head blown off instead of his leg, he’d probably be remembered as fondly as Jackson.
Fortunately (for the Union), he survived to “defend” Atlanta, then invade Tennessee. The Battle of Franklin being in that comedy of errors. The base wasn’t named after him until 1942. By people who read enough history to know Hood commanded the Texas brigade, but not enough to know how he commanded it.
I salute General Hood on account that he’s responsible for more dead Confederates than any two Union Generals.
Story time? Please?
The number of Confederate apologists in this thread is frankly insane. “Oh no! Someone is making jokes about pissing on the graves of traitors and slavers! What if there were some innocent people in there?? I mean, I realize that it’s going to be really difficult to find someone who was so insanely stupid to not be aware that they were fighting for slavers and traitors, but what if they exist???!?! Are you going to piss on their grave, too!!!???!”
No, I think it’s recognition that whatever crimes you think they’ve done, they’ve paid for it already in a permanent way. So joking about pissing on their graves (160 years later ffs) is ill taste. Feel free to smear shit or graffiti over confederate statues that seek to glorify the cause rather than memorialize the dead though since that is not the same thing.
I also think most common soldiers in the confederate army fought for no higher reason than they were drafted and had little choice; or they signed up to defend their state against an existential threat. If you look at recruitment posters of the time, they’re talking of northern invaders raping and pillaging their women, property and lands.
whatever crimes you think they’ve done, they’ve paid for it already in a permanent way
Have they, though? Death isn’t exactly unique. Regardless of how good or bad a person you are, everybody has death as their final fate. So dying for a shitty cause isn’t exactly punishment, considering that people who were in favor of a good cause still met the same fate. Death isn’t a punishment for being a shitty person, it’s just a birthright.
I also think most common soldiers in the confederate army fought for no higher reason than they were drafted and had little choice
Ok, but you know who else was drafted and had little choice? The people who defected. Some of those same people worked to further the cause of abolition by operating the underground railroad. Some of them wound up in prison, and some of them were hanged. I don’t have any sympathy whatsoever for someone who lacked the courage or morality to fight against evil. And I have even less sympathy for someone stupid enough to fall for basic bitch propaganda like what you described.
Dude, that is so easy to say when you weren’t actually there, in a completely different time.
The flow of information was completely different back then too. You have the worlds information at your fingertips, these people hardly new what happened outside of their town and even then it was delayed and through very few sources.
It’s not that your anger is completely unjustified, but damn dude… Your anger is directed at a bunch of dead suckers most of whom were probably not large land owners and politicians. Direct it at their leaders, or better, the suckers very much alive, currently buying MAGA hats.
Oh, you guys, they just didn’t know slavery was bad. They were very stupid. :( You can’t piss on stupid people; that’s like ableism or something.
Direct it at their leaders, or better, the suckers very much alive, currently buying MAGA hats.
What do you think pissing on the graves is for?
I run into MAGA / QAnon loons online and they suffer the opposite issue. They have plenty of information to choose from and they’ll choose the worst and use cognitive dissonance to blank the rest. The number of times they’ll dismiss stuff by proclaiming it comes “from the Soros media” or whatever. One basket case even replied to a news story the other day that Ukraine was a “movie set” to discount the news of missile strikes. How can you reach people like that?
I suspect for all people during the American civil war their only source of news was their local newspapers and fliers. Hardly surprising if they were unable to develop enlightened views that GP seems to judge them for not having.
And yet the North held them to those views when they killed them. Maybe the North should have tried asking politely.
I think you seriously underestimate my capacity for anger. Of course I direct it at the leaders and the modern-day traitors as well. My anger is a multi-faceted thing. Seriously, though, are you only capable of being angry about one thing at a time? Because if not, why would you assume that I am?
And as I said, the rubes you’re describing will receive no sympathy from me. I don’t rate willful stupidity or cowardice among human virtues. They might not be as deserving of a river of piss as the knowingly evil people who led them, but it’s not like I’m going to get bent out of shape if someone pissed on their graves all the same. They were shit then, and they’re shit now. The only thing that’s changed is that ~160 years have passed since they died, and for some reason, some people seem to think that time passing means that bygones should be bygones.
Yes they have paid the price. They’re dead as doornails, killed from battle, wounds and disease. And you seem to know a lot about all these people to blanket describe them as “a shitty person” each and all.
As for drafting, the point is obvious. Getting drafted meant extreme hardship for a man’s family. Some communities resisted the draft, many more were impressed whether they liked it or not. And even those who volunteered were joining for more base emotions than slavery - they were literally told by all the media and information they had access to that the northerners were coming to destroy them, rape their wives & daughters, set slaves free to murder their families and steal their land. Maybe you live in an information rich media sphere but they didn’t.
And absolutely the Confederacy was a terrible and rotten cause through and through but most of these people didn’t have any choice in the matter. No more so than the people drafted in the North. In fact if you look at Confederate draft laws they were even more inequitable and bullshit to the poor as the ones for the Union, where the rich could buy their way out of service by finding a man in their stead, or simply for owning slaves. It’s the poor bastards who didn’t own slaves or hold wealth you see beneath those grave markers.
“Nazis deserve respect too!” these absolute cretins sob, “They were products of their time!”
It’s a stupid joke. It’s often best to just let the dead lie. In any case, the stones and dead that lay beneath them don’t care - you can’t hurt them or impress them.
You want to “get even” with them? Good! They did a bad thing and paid the immediate cost with the loss of their lives. But to truly get even - forget them and let them be lost to time and memory. As it stands, you obsess over them just as much as if you were a member of the KKK.
This meme makes me miss the old ShermanPosting subreddit. Excellent post
There’s actually a ShermanPosting community here I made in honor of the old one!
Hell yeah! Subscribed :)
We need a Sherman posting Lemmy sub
My uncle will be turned into a toilet when he dies. That’s he get’s for being a forced birther.
Apt username.
The best way to celebrate confederate generals is by melting down statues dedicated to them during the civil rights era and re-casting them into urinals
Apparently civility politics is back in style for pleading for sympathy for… [checks notes] people who fought to uphold one of the most brutal forms of an already brutal institution in defense of white supremacy.
Won’t someone think of the slaveowners?
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I’ll tell your great-granddaddy you said hi.
It’s functionally the same logic as… [check notes] American civilians deserving to die in 9/11 for being complicit in American imperialism. Would asking Bin Laden not to attack the WTC count as “civility politics”?
“Disrespecting the graves of soldiers who literally fought and died in a war for slavery is the exact same thing as killing civilians in a terrorist attack because a rich Saudi kid was assmad that infidels were on holy land in the early 90s”
10/10
I’m assuming you’re thinking every single soldier in the Confederacy fights because they want their precious slavery.
not everyone who served had much of a choice. Many were expected to serve on one side or the other merely because of where they lived. This is true of much of history
I’m pointing to this comment made by someone in this post. Feel free to piss on the grave of Jefferson Davis or soldiers who thought like him. Also, Bin Laden thought every American civilian is just as guilty as the soldiers.
From Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama bin Laden, as quoted in the guy’s Wikipedia page:
“Furthermore, he argued that all Americans were complicit in the crimes of their government due to majority of them electing it to power and paying taxes that fund the US military.”
Assuming you’re American, what do you think if someone you don’t like uses the same logic against you?
I’m assuming you’re thinking every single soldier in the Confederacy fights because they want their precious slavery.
The war is literally about slavery. As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the calculus is the same as people who fought for the fucking Nazis - if you’re ‘brave’ enough to die for slavers, but not for slaves, you deserve to be cast in with the slavers.
Also, Bin Laden thought every American civilian is just as guilty as the soldiers.
Okay…? Why does the rich Saudi kid’s opinion on how civilians are totally okay to murder matter here?
Assuming you’re American, what do you think if someone you don’t like uses the same logic against you?
… how is that the same logic? Please, explain to me how “It’s okay to disrespect people who served in the armed forces of a revolt whose sole purpose was slavery” and “It’s okay to murder civilians because they pay taxes” is the same logic?
Okay…? Why does the rich Saudi kid’s opinion on how civilians are totally okay to murder matter here?
Probability-wise, you’re mad that Bin Laden even thought of murdering civilians in the first place. Bin Laden didn’t care because in his view, they’re virtually combatants i.e. valid targets for a struggle that you disagree with, to put it mildly.
… how is that the same logic? Please, explain to me how “It’s okay to disrespect people who served in the armed forces of a revolt whose sole purpose was slavery” and “It’s okay to murder civilians because they pay taxes” is the same logic?
The intensity of the desired action (mere disrespect vs. murder) is very different, but its logic is the same from my perspective: I want to do X on Y because I don’t like that Y does Z. Let’s take the “okay to murder civilians because they pay taxes” hypothetical sentiment. Though very remote, it’s not impossible for an unhinged enough anarchist to believe this and actually act on it.
Probability-wise, you’re mad that Bin Laden even thought of murdering civilians in the first place. Bin Laden didn’t care because in his view, they’re virtually combatants i.e. valid targets for a struggle that you disagree with, to put it mildly.
I can say infants are virtually combatants, and it doesn’t make it so. Why is his insane argument at all valid?
The intensity of the desired action (mere disrespect vs. murder) is very different, but its logic is the same from my perspective: I want to do X on Y because I don’t like that Y does Z.
… what
“I want to put murderers in jail because I don’t like that murderers kill people”
is thus the same logic as
“I want to murder gay people because I don’t like that gay people have sex with the same gender”
are you fucking shitting me right now
are you fucking shitting me right now
No. It’s really the same logic. Otherwise, homophobia would not be even a thing anywhere in the world.
I’m thinking that by your logic, you would also urinate on the graves of Vietnam veterans, many of whom had no choice, because they were conscripted, and either lacked the means to avoid conscription or were unable to flee the US.
Take a few minutes to hear from a man who fought in the Civil War as a 16 year old boy for the 26th Virginia Cavalry.
He wasn’t old enough or educated enough to even realize slavery was one of the causes of the war. At the end of the video he blames the wealthy/politicians for getting them into it, and celebrates the end of slavery.
Makes you wonder what his story would have been if the south had won
Tbh pave it for a parking lot
- History is important, even history we disagree with. Especially history that some current ideologue wants to hide
- These people being killed left suffering for their family and friends, a missing generation was a huge problem for their community
- Most soldiers were likely fighting for their friends and communities. Maybe I’m overstepping for things I’ve never experienced, but I would be willing to bet that very few individual soldiers chose to be there to support slavery, or had anywhere near that amount of abstraction in their motivations
This is what a cursed place looks like. Somewhere you start desecrating and bad things will happen to you from some truly bad souls.
Would be a bit rough if someone actually did this
Misspelled “rad”.
What word would be the misspelled one?
“Rough”
How do you even manage to misspell “rad” so badly that it’d read “rough”??
It’s a joke about pretending that you meant to say that it would be a rad thing to do.
Oh wow really?
Rough
I’ve argued this before, but if Russia has any hope to move towards capitalism rather than their current communist streak, whoever succeeds Putin would be wise to sell the opportunity to piss on Putin’s grave.
If done smartly, this could be a really good opportunity for Russia. Imagine going to pissonputinsgrave.com and being greeted by several packages:
- Base package - $15. You’re in the neighborhood and you want to piss on his grave. Just buy the ticket, show the QR code to Igor and he’ll look the other way while you enjoy pissing on the cunt.
- Deluxe - $450. 5 nights in a 4-star Moscow hotel await you. Entrance to museums, the Kremlin and Putin’s grave are included in the price. Enjoy pissing on his grave every night of your vacation, even multiple times a day. Igor will even aim your penis at the grave if you want.
- Oligarch - $1000. Deluxe package, but with flights to and from your location included. Igor will come pick you up. Igor will insist on aiming your penis at the grave.
- Remote - $5000. Why visit Russia when you can go to places that aren’t shitholes? When you’re truly wealthy, you can have your cake and eat it too. Igor will come to you. He will be carrying a gold cup with your name engraved on it in rubies. You may fill it with the liquid/solid of your choice, and Igor will take it back through customs somehow. You will receive a video of that very same cup being poured onto Putin’s grave, and will receive the cup back as a souvenir, after it has been thoroughly sanitized. You can of course have Igor hold your penis at any point while he is visiting.
I… what?
… Russia isn’t communist? And hasn’t been since the fall of the Soviet Union?
didn’t you know? capitalism is when you can sell things, communism is when things are bad
