The ability to change features, prices, and availability of things you’ve already paid for is a powerful temptation to corporations.

  • Rough_N_Ready@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Piracy was never stealing. It’s copyright infringement, but that’s not the same as stealing at all. People saying it’s stealing have always been wrong.

    • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
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      9 months ago

      One of the great modern scams, was to convince society that unauthorized copying of data is somehow equivalent to taking away a physical object.

      • Coasting0942@reddthat.com
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        9 months ago

        Jesus didn’t ask for permission to copy bread and fish. It’s a clear moral precedent that if you can copy you should.

        What would the Jesus do?

        Checkmate Atheists!

        • AeroLemming@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          Not a lawyer, but most of what you said is true, except:

          then it’s not possible to copy that data without depriving the creator of its value.

          We’re talking about the theoretical value the creator might get if you decide to pay for something. If you never had any intention of paying to access something if you couldn’t find a pirated copy, no value has been lost by the creator due to copying the data and therefore no harm has been done. The requirement for criminal liability should be that a harm has been inflicted by you beyond any reasonable doubt. Piracy as a deprivation of monetary value can not ever meet this requirement. Of course, the actual requirement is that you have committed a crime beyond reasonable doubt, so if corrupt legislators make piracy a crime, the justice system can obviously charge you with it despite it being victimless, hence the scam.

      • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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        9 months ago

        Literally no one thinks that. But you know that already, don’t you?

        It’s theft of intellectual property…

          • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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            9 months ago

            Once again with the strawman.

            Intellectual property is not a thought that you own. It’s an idea or digital creation. Something that actually takes time to make, often a whole lot of time. Something you never would have dedicated as much time to if you couldn’t be compensated for it.

            I love how you guys play these mental gymnastics to justify this shit to yourselves.

            • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
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              9 months ago

              You seem to not understand what the word own means and the difference between material and not material goods.

                • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
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                  9 months ago

                  I have a thing and than someone takes it away, so I can’t use it anymore. If somebody copies that thing - it’s not really theft.

                  My point is more - concepts from physical world don’t nessessary apply to digital world.

                  • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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                    9 months ago

                    If somebody copies that thing - it’s not really theft.

                    Yes, it absolutely is, by any standard. Ask the dictionary, ask the law, ask literally any authority on literacy and they all come up with the same verdict.

                    You’re just lying to justify being a bonehead to yourself.

                    If you want to argue when piracy is and is not ethical, that is a different discussion we can have, and we’d likely largely agree. But saying that anything that is digital doesn’t belong to anyone is pure nonsense.

        • merc@sh.itjust.works
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          9 months ago

          Intellectual property is a scam, the term was invented to convince dumb people that a government-granted monopoly on the expression of an idea is the same thing as “property”.

          You can’t “steal” intellectual property, you can only infringe on someone’s monopoly rights.

          • bane_killgrind@lemmy.ml
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            9 months ago

            Imagine if startrek was written with IP in mind. Instead of all these wunderkinds being all gung ho about implementing their warp field improvements on your reactor you’d get some ferengi shilling the latest and greatest “marketable” blech engine improvements.

            Fiction is much better without reality leeching in.

            • merc@sh.itjust.works
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              9 months ago

              Star Trek was set in a future utopia. One of the key things about the show is that it’s a post-scarcity world where even physical objects can be replicated.

              They definitely wrote the series with IP in mind… in that their view of a future utopia was one where not only did copyright etc. not exist, but nobody cared much about the ownership of physical objects either.

          • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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            9 months ago

            That is absolutely 100% a completely insane position. The fact that you feel entitled to literally everything someone else creates it’s fucking horrific and you are a sad person.

            • TootGuitar@reddthat.com
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              9 months ago

              For someone who bitches all over this thread about people strawmanning their position, this is a pretty fucking great reply.

              Hint: one can be pissed about people throwing around the not-based-in-legal-reality term “intellectual property.” One can be pissed about people using it as part of a strategy to purposely confuse the public into thinking that copyright infringement is the same as theft, a strategy which has apparently worked mightily well on you. One can be all of those things, and yet still feel that copyright infringement is wrong and no one should be entitled to “literally everything someone else creates.”

              What you posted was a textbook definition of a straw man.

              • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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                9 months ago

                One can be pissed about people using it as part of a strategy to purposely confuse the public into thinking that copyright infringement is the same as theft

                No, you have it wrong, one is part of a strategy to confuse the public into thinking it’s not, because it justifies doing whatever they want.

                still feel that copyright infringement is wrong and no one should be entitled to “literally everything someone else creates.”

                But they don’t feel that copyright infringement is wrong. How closely did you read the previous statements?

                They literally said “Intellectual property is a scam”. I don’t know how else you could possibly interpret that

                • TootGuitar@reddthat.com
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                  9 months ago

                  I don’t know how the original poster meant it, but one possible way to interpret it (which is coincidentally my opinion) is that the concept of intellectual property is a scam, but the underlying actual legal concepts are not. Meaning, the law defines protections for copyrights, trademarks, patents, and trade secrets, and each of those has their uses and are generally not “scams,” but mixing them all together and packaging them up into this thing called intellectual property (which has no actual legal basis for its existence) is the scam. Does that make sense?

                  • helenslunch@feddit.nl
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                    9 months ago

                    So it’s just a classic case of someone saying something entirely unrepresentative of what they actually mean, then arguing it to death…?

        • Cypher@aussie.zone
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          9 months ago

          The performers time is not infinitely reproducible so your argument is apples to oranges.

          • ominouslemon@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            But the time to create a novel, a videogame, or a news story is not infinitely reproducible, either. So when you are pirsting one of those things, you are actively reaping the benefits of someone’s time for free, like going to a concert without a ticket

        • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
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          9 months ago

          I don’t see anything wrong with paying for software or music or digital media. I don’t think that not doing so is theft - like I also don’t think that getting into a concert without paying is theft. By the way a concert is also not digital data, at least an irl one.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            A library card is your ticket there and libraries are paid via taxes, which is why they’re free at point of use.

            Attending a free concert is not stealing. Breaking into the Eras tour is.

            • snooggums@kbin.social
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              9 months ago

              The library buys once and allows multiple people to read/watch each item without each person needing to individually purchase. Just like one person buying something and sharing it with others.

              The main point is that digitization distribution is not a concert

              • SCB@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Digital distribution is a service. You can steal a service.

                If you fuck a prostitute and then don’t pay them, you are stealing from them.

                • snooggums@kbin.social
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                  9 months ago

                  If the prostitute uses a technique, and then you use the same technique without paying hem for reuse, is that stealing or does their direct involvement matter?

                  • sdoorex@slrpnk.net
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                    9 months ago

                    If you’re going to retype the code of a program from scratch, then your analogy is valid. If instead you are taking the production created through someone else’s labor without compensating them, then you are stealing from them.

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    Prostitutes don’t become prostitutes because they know secret techniques.

                    The metaphor is describing the service provided, and that not paying for said service is indeed stealing.

                    Trying to make it a different metaphor requires a new framework from you, because you copying their actual service would be you pimping them, under this metaphor.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I’m a software developer, and I endorse the grandparent comment.

        • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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          9 months ago

          And you all just were happy and bro fisted people who ignored the licensing terms?

          • grue@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Yes.

            Well, not literally, both because I’m more inclined to “high five” and you can’t do either gesture over the Internet. But figuratively, yes.

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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              9 months ago

              Why don’t you just gift away your software than? That’s an honest question. You obviously aren’t expecting to be paid for it, do you think in general developers shouldn’t earn money with software or is it just you?

              • grue@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Why don’t you just gift away your software than?

                Because I don’t make those decisions; my employer does. They ought to give it away, but they don’t.

                (The software I’ve worked on has tended to be either (a) tools for internal company use or (b) stuff used by the government/large companies where the revenue would definitely have come from a support contract even if the code itself were free.)

      • puttybrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        9 months ago

        If I made software that people cared enough about to crack and pirate, I’d be happy that it’s popular enough for that to happen.

        I am a software developer but I’ve only worked on SaAS and open source projects.

        • zerofk@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          I work on software which is pirated. It is even sold by crackers, who make money off my work. This does not make me proud.

          What does make me proud is when a paying customer says they love a specific feature, or that our software saves them a lot of manual work.

        • poopkins@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Pride unfortunately doesn’t pay the bills. It’s terrific that you contribute to open source, but not all commercial software can be open sourced.

        • aksdb@feddit.de
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          9 months ago

          Tell me which so I can develop a competing service and steal your userbase!

        • satan@r.nf
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          9 months ago

          I’d be happy that it’s popular enough for that to happen.

          of course you would. you would actually give them your house and wife, because you’re so proud now. right?

          • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Ah yes, because downloading Shark_Tale.mp4 is exactly the same as someone taking your house away from you and obtaining your wife and owning them as personal property.

            Get some fucking perspective. I usually try to be polite online but this is just straight up moronic and you need to be told so bluntly.

      • iegod@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        You need to disconnect the badness with the term stealing because you’re just wrong. Yeah it’s ip infringement. Yes it’s illegal. Yes people are impacted. And still… Not stealing.

        • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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          9 months ago

          Yes I am. And the two companies I worked for both were small, offered their products for cheap and still had people pirating the modules or circumvent licensing terms. It’s a legit problem that a lot of people don’t see why they should pay for software simply because it’s sometimes easy to steal it.

          • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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            9 months ago

            circumvent licensing terms

            So to be clear: was it possible to purchase and own the software? Or did users have to pay a subscription for a license? Because personally I’m getting sick of every piece of software thinking it’s appropriate to require a subscription.

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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              9 months ago

              How about you don’t use it if it is to be paid by subscription? How is it justified to go against an agreement just because you don’t like it?

      • Rough_N_Ready@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I have been for over 20 years actually! What do I get for winning the bet?

        Edit:

        One of our games we actually ended up supporting a form of piracy. A huge amount of our user base ended up using cheat tools to play our game which meant that they could get things that they would normally have to purchase with premium currency. Instead of banning them, we were careful to not break their cheat tools and I even had to debug why their cheat tool stopped working after a release.