And that is my point. Show me in my post where I praised the man?
I didn’t. I called out you lot for bandwagoning and group think. and you clearly are.
Because now you are making claims about my post which clearly do not exist.
I clearly directed this to the flood of “ding dong the wicked witch is dead” posters who know nothing about his achievements or what was LEVELLED AGAINST HIM BY IS CRITICS.
I clearly stated that he had critics. But you lot only saw that I was not jumping on the bash him bandwagon and then concluded that I’m a supporter because it went against status quo. That is the fucking definition of group think.
Personally I am not a fan of his politics or him as a person.
But for fuck sake, you lot are acting like he was the devil.
The irony of telling someone to “go outside and get a hobby” for posting online while conversely doing the same thing, coupled with the cliche of claiming “you’re a troll” because they have an opinion you disagree with.
Well done for double scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Can I expect more of your cutting wit in future replies? 🙄
You will surely get some upvotes and reinforce your view that you are right while yelling into the echo chamber with your fingers firmly pressed into your ears. 👏
I mean the fact your post was as cliche as a 16 year old could muster and still attempt to take a high ground on an intellectual premise is arrogance of the highest accord.
No I’m not, I literally outlined in my initial post that there are critics of Kissenger.
I’m outlining that the subject is a dogpile of people engaging in group think where the only valid opinion is “he badman” and there is no honest discourse.
Well he was instrumental in ending the Vietnam War. He and his family fled the Nazis in 1938, then he joined the us army to fight them in 1943.
His views on defeating communism meant he also advocated for some fucked up shit. And most of his work in policy is why I’m not a fan of him.
But it’s not a binary thing. He is not the devil. Not even close to some of the people in power today.
My point has and continues to be that there is no discourse going on right now. There is just a dogpile.
I didn’t want to argue about the virtues of Kissenger, or lack. I wanted to point out the large amount of group think people are going into on THE SUBJECT.
Yeah I’m sure he fled his country at 16 then chose to fight against the Nazis 4 years later because he was focused on “political power”. That’s fucking ridiculous and completely unsubstantiated
And again, IamRight links are bullshit.
Show me published papers or edu links.
What a powerful counterpoint. I mean clearly because you do not agree I’m a bootlicker.
After all your echo chamber developed point of view is clearly correct.
I mean how could it not be? You didn’t come up with it yourself. You just looked at what everyone was saying and made a juvenile response to try and feel connected to the group.
Should we talk more about your need to feel like you have relevance in the group or are we done?
Oh of course it is, unless you want to claim it isn’t. I already addressed this with my “hurr durr Nobel Peace Prize irrelevant because globalisation bad”.
You literally just started the Nobel Peace Prize is irrelevant, without qualification.
And now you want to claim I’m not “answering anything”.
I have made my best effort to answer replies. But why should I do more than what you are doing?
So please, as a Swede, somehow giving you special knowledge of the subject, explain why the Nobel Peace prize is irrelevant? I mean it started in Norway, so not even in your country. 🙄
I mean was it irrelevant when the Red Cross won it twice? What about when it was won by Bertha von Suttner? What about Kofi Annan? Or Narges Mohammadi?
Or is it maybe that it is only irrelevant when it doesn’t support your position?
The Paris Peace accords leading to a ceasefire in Vietnam were signed on January 27, 1973. To critics, “peace with honor” didn’t look that different from options available when Nixon first took power: “Kissinger and Nixon wasted four years of negotiations with the Vietnamese communists, agreeing to virtually the same peace terms in 1973 that were on the table in 1969,” argues Brigham. In total, 2.5 million to 3 million Vietnamese and other Indochinese and 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam. Hundreds more were missing in action.
On the other side of the equation, a consultant to the Johnson Administration on the peace process stood ready to pass information from the 1968 peace talks to Nixon, who then did his utmost to sabotage them, even though, according to the Logan Act, it is illegal for U.S. citizens “to engage in unauthorized diplomacy with foreign countries with intent to ‘influence the measures or conduct’ of a foreign government.” The informant from within the talks? None other than Henry Kissinger, who used his role as Johnson’s adviser at the peace talks to help secure Nixon’s 1968 victory.
You don’t get to claim you contributed to peace when you deliberately stalled it and lengthened the war and then achieved literally nothing at all in terms of improving the terms of the piece. His role in the negotiations was to ensure more people died.
Yes they can, hence why this unabashed vitriol is clearly just Lemmy group think.
Because while you may not agree with the fact he is closely associated with the Republicans. He did get a Nobel Peace Prize.
And while I never praised the man, the fact I called out people for bandwagoning, only for the responses to be more bandwagoning and the attempt to frame what I posted as support for the man clearly shows the level of blind indoctrination of “this bad, this good” group think going on here.
Also he was a staunch anti communist. Probably the real reason for the outpouring of hatred.
You think you’re unique coz you’re contrarian and can think for yourself. You’re just more interested in being edgy.
And it’s not just lemmy, all of media has come out to remember who Kissinger really was. Except for Reuters. They suck.
Anyway, be brave and pick a side. There’s no high road here by taking a neutral stance on Kissinger. He was a monster and should be remembered as such.
I don’t think I’m unique at all, in fact I know I’m not. Humans are pretty predictable because of the fact we are not unique.
However your assertion that I’m contrarian because I’m not supporting the dogpile, is simply an assertion that my position is anti popular in it’s goal. And further you are assuming that the group think going on right now is the popular opinion amongst general society.
And while I would not be so bold to claim that “all of the media” is on this dogpile, I would ask if that is more a reflection of the media you choose to embrace, rather than the sentiment of general society.
Finally I’m not going to fall for the trick of claiming I’m some flakey fence sitter because I “failed to choose a side”, because I never claimed to be on Kissinger’s. I just don’t like this dogpile, it seems disingenuous to me. So someone needs to call it out.
I pointed out the huge amount of group think going on with this subject right now because the only opinions being expressed, and certainly the only being supported in this circle are those whom advocate to portray Kissenger as the devil.
I already said I’m not a fan of Kissenger and I disagree with pretty much all of his policies, but that opinion notwithstanding, the level of vitriol going on at the moment is nothing more than dogpiling using populist pandering and someone should at least call it out.
In the past few hours the feed has been full of this crap.
And you’re the cliche regurgitator of other’s opinions without adding content to discussion.
In case that was unclear. You’re the type of person who interrupts a discussion to go “oh yeah what that other person said”, because you think it gains favour, cannot add value to a discussion and feel the need to be heard for you own self indulgence.
Are we done with irrelevant posts yet or should we go on?
Unlike yourself I don’t need to take other people’s words and regurgitate them. Nor do I need cheap parlour tricks like inserting what I wish to argue against as the premise of my argument.
That was kind of the point. Sorry it was too nuanced for you.
Let me simply.
You are adding no value to this discussion because your comments are irrelevant and superficial.
Why do you feel uncomfortable with criticizing a mass murdering war criminal?
The dude didn’t hate communism for their values but for belonging to the enemy. He was a Jew but hated his own people (he said he’d gave been an antisemite if he wasn’t born a Jew, with a motivation as asinine as “they must have been doing something wrong to be persecuted for 2000 years”, as if he didn’t know what propaganda was), including ignoring executions of Jews in USSR.
He personally ordered THOUSANDS of bombings in Cambodia and in many many other countries, was responsible for multiple coups and replacing democratic leaders with dictators (this is not something you do if you genuinely belive in democracy over communism), and was an overall monster.
I mean really? How many unsubstantiated claims do you want to make, and must I really call them out?
A “mass murderer”, really, can you provide evidence other than IamRight weblinks?
No you cannot, a legitimate criticism would be that he turned a blind eye to war crimes, he was not a mass murderer. That’s nothing more than hyperbola.
He was “A Jew but hated his own people”. Wow okay, yeah sure, that’s so egregious it doesn’t require rebuttal.
In any case, where did I state that I rejected criticism? I simply pointed out that Lemmy got a hardon today for dogpiling on this subject and there is no discourse, there is only group think.
I never claimed that discourse doesn’t require rebuttal, in fact invite it. Honest debate is important.
Now I’m not saying this directly to you, but most of the replies I’m getting are not that. And most of the posts and threads about this subject are not that. It’s an echo chamber.
I just don’t want more irrelevant “lol you stupid” responses because they are pointless.
Now I’m probably going to piss you off here. But I don’t put a lot of stock in random .com and .net type links.
If they are .edu or at least well reviewed wiki article then I’ll consider them. Because I can also find links that support any argument and claim any “truth”.
Most of you in this thread have no idea what he did in his career, what his achievements were or what his critics levelled against him.
You are just engaging in the exact type of cliche group think which you all claim to stand against.
Try thinking for yourself and stop with the Hollywood two dimensional heroes and villains trope.
Oh, look… the war criminal apologetics brigade has decided to show up.
Fuck Henry Kissinger.
I listened to 6 hours about the guy’s life and he sucks ass. Maybe you’d take your own advice if you’ve got the time
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-kissinger-94160733/
Wow you listened to someone else’s opinion for 6 hours and provided an IamRight weblink.
You are clearly an expert.
I bet your “research” doesn’t mention his Nobel Peace Prize for helping to end America’s involvement in the Vietnam war.
See I can cherry pick facts as well.
But let me guess, your counter argument is “hurr durr globalisation propaganda”, right?
bad troll
Ah yes, different opinions for which you fail to provide a valid counterpoint must mean troll.
Thank you for your irrelevant input.
you a bad troll because praising kissinger here is like shooting fish in a barrel. i mean, come on…
And that is my point. Show me in my post where I praised the man?
I didn’t. I called out you lot for bandwagoning and group think. and you clearly are.
Because now you are making claims about my post which clearly do not exist.
I clearly directed this to the flood of “ding dong the wicked witch is dead” posters who know nothing about his achievements or what was LEVELLED AGAINST HIM BY IS CRITICS.
I clearly stated that he had critics. But you lot only saw that I was not jumping on the bash him bandwagon and then concluded that I’m a supporter because it went against status quo. That is the fucking definition of group think.
Personally I am not a fan of his politics or him as a person.
But for fuck sake, you lot are acting like he was the devil.
top kek… happy kissinger death day to all
Solid counter argument. Did you come up with that one all by yourself or did mummy help you?
Isn’t it time for your tendies and a nappy change?
Obvious troll is very obvious. Go outside and get a hobby mate
Irony and cliche in one post.
The irony of telling someone to “go outside and get a hobby” for posting online while conversely doing the same thing, coupled with the cliche of claiming “you’re a troll” because they have an opinion you disagree with.
Well done for double scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Can I expect more of your cutting wit in future replies? 🙄
You don’t get to expect wit in replies when your clearly have a negative amount
You will surely get some upvotes and reinforce your view that you are right while yelling into the echo chamber with your fingers firmly pressed into your ears. 👏
I mean the fact your post was as cliche as a 16 year old could muster and still attempt to take a high ground on an intellectual premise is arrogance of the highest accord.
More big words that weren’t needed
You are correct there. They were big words wasted on a small mind.
My apologies.
Are you really pretending kissinger’s actions are entirely unknown to the world?
No I’m not, I literally outlined in my initial post that there are critics of Kissenger.
I’m outlining that the subject is a dogpile of people engaging in group think where the only valid opinion is “he badman” and there is no honest discourse.
What good did he do
Don’t bother mentioning that prize if you aren’t going to explain why he was given it
Well he was instrumental in ending the Vietnam War. He and his family fled the Nazis in 1938, then he joined the us army to fight them in 1943.
His views on defeating communism meant he also advocated for some fucked up shit. And most of his work in policy is why I’m not a fan of him.
But it’s not a binary thing. He is not the devil. Not even close to some of the people in power today.
My point has and continues to be that there is no discourse going on right now. There is just a dogpile.
I didn’t want to argue about the virtues of Kissenger, or lack. I wanted to point out the large amount of group think people are going into on THE SUBJECT.
He was not
https://slrpnk.net/comment/4371443
He was instrumental in making it last longer
He fought the nazis because he cared about personal power and US power, not because he cared about the nazis.
Yeah I’m sure he fled his country at 16 then chose to fight against the Nazis 4 years later because he was focused on “political power”. That’s fucking ridiculous and completely unsubstantiated
And again, IamRight links are bullshit. Show me published papers or edu links.
I have links that say the world leaders are Reptile Aliens. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240595423_The_Reptoid_Hypothesis_Utopian_and_Dystopian_Representational_Motifs_in_David_Icke’s_Alien_Conspiracy_Theory
I’m glad there’s at least one person against the dog pile. Nuance is lost here; this place becomes more like reddit every day. :/
Lol, go back to lurking bootlicker…
What a powerful counterpoint. I mean clearly because you do not agree I’m a bootlicker.
After all your echo chamber developed point of view is clearly correct.
I mean how could it not be? You didn’t come up with it yourself. You just looked at what everyone was saying and made a juvenile response to try and feel connected to the group.
Should we talk more about your need to feel like you have relevance in the group or are we done?
The Nobel peace prize is unfortunately worthless
Oh of course it is, unless you want to claim it isn’t. I already addressed this with my “hurr durr Nobel Peace Prize irrelevant because globalisation bad”.
Try reading the thread before commenting.
As a swede I know in detail why the peace prize sucks and “globalization” is just your excuse to not answer anything
You literally just started the Nobel Peace Prize is irrelevant, without qualification.
And now you want to claim I’m not “answering anything”.
I have made my best effort to answer replies. But why should I do more than what you are doing?
So please, as a Swede, somehow giving you special knowledge of the subject, explain why the Nobel Peace prize is irrelevant? I mean it started in Norway, so not even in your country. 🙄
I mean was it irrelevant when the Red Cross won it twice? What about when it was won by Bertha von Suttner? What about Kofi Annan? Or Narges Mohammadi?
Or is it maybe that it is only irrelevant when it doesn’t support your position?
Unfortunately we get to hear all about them anyway
Replies and answers are not the same thing
https://bigthink.com/the-past/worst-nobel-peace-prizes/
https://www.reuters.com/world/nobel-prize-body-knew-kissingers-1973-vietnam-deal-unlikely-bring-peace-2023-01-11/
https://www.history.com/news/henry-kissinger-vietnam-war-legacy
https://progressive.org/magazine/kissingers-culpability-cords/
You don’t get to claim you contributed to peace when you deliberately stalled it and lengthened the war and then achieved literally nothing at all in terms of improving the terms of the piece. His role in the negotiations was to ensure more people died.
So you didn’t rebuff my point. Only continued your line that the Nobel Peace Prize is irrelevant.
But I noticed you didn’t comment on the irrelevancy of those examples I gave you.
So tell me, why are these awards to Narges Mohammadi irrelevant? Why is it irrelevant to Nelson Mandela?
Don’t post more IamRight links about Kissenger. We established that this was a controversial award. We established that he is controversial.
I agreed.
Tell me why the award is irrelevant? Because your position is now hinging on the fact it is. This was your point was it not?
Lol. Praising him for “ending” a war he was responsible for extending.
His achievements can easily be googled. You agree with that or is it too “Hollywood” for ya. Too cliche to call him a villain.
Yes they can, hence why this unabashed vitriol is clearly just Lemmy group think.
Because while you may not agree with the fact he is closely associated with the Republicans. He did get a Nobel Peace Prize.
And while I never praised the man, the fact I called out people for bandwagoning, only for the responses to be more bandwagoning and the attempt to frame what I posted as support for the man clearly shows the level of blind indoctrination of “this bad, this good” group think going on here.
Also he was a staunch anti communist. Probably the real reason for the outpouring of hatred.
You think you’re unique coz you’re contrarian and can think for yourself. You’re just more interested in being edgy.
And it’s not just lemmy, all of media has come out to remember who Kissinger really was. Except for Reuters. They suck.
Anyway, be brave and pick a side. There’s no high road here by taking a neutral stance on Kissinger. He was a monster and should be remembered as such.
I don’t think I’m unique at all, in fact I know I’m not. Humans are pretty predictable because of the fact we are not unique.
However your assertion that I’m contrarian because I’m not supporting the dogpile, is simply an assertion that my position is anti popular in it’s goal. And further you are assuming that the group think going on right now is the popular opinion amongst general society.
And while I would not be so bold to claim that “all of the media” is on this dogpile, I would ask if that is more a reflection of the media you choose to embrace, rather than the sentiment of general society.
Finally I’m not going to fall for the trick of claiming I’m some flakey fence sitter because I “failed to choose a side”, because I never claimed to be on Kissinger’s. I just don’t like this dogpile, it seems disingenuous to me. So someone needs to call it out.
I pointed out the huge amount of group think going on with this subject right now because the only opinions being expressed, and certainly the only being supported in this circle are those whom advocate to portray Kissenger as the devil.
I already said I’m not a fan of Kissenger and I disagree with pretty much all of his policies, but that opinion notwithstanding, the level of vitriol going on at the moment is nothing more than dogpiling using populist pandering and someone should at least call it out.
In the past few hours the feed has been full of this crap.
You have an insufferable personality and you’re not as profound as you think you are.
You’re the flat earthers of morality.
And you’re the cliche regurgitator of other’s opinions without adding content to discussion.
In case that was unclear. You’re the type of person who interrupts a discussion to go “oh yeah what that other person said”, because you think it gains favour, cannot add value to a discussion and feel the need to be heard for you own self indulgence.
Are we done with irrelevant posts yet or should we go on?
Did you get that quote from somebody who had just been listening to you talk? And then misunderstood and thought they meant the other person?
Unlike yourself I don’t need to take other people’s words and regurgitate them. Nor do I need cheap parlour tricks like inserting what I wish to argue against as the premise of my argument.
That was kind of the point. Sorry it was too nuanced for you.
Let me simply.
You are adding no value to this discussion because your comments are irrelevant and superficial.
Why do you feel uncomfortable with criticizing a mass murdering war criminal?
The dude didn’t hate communism for their values but for belonging to the enemy. He was a Jew but hated his own people (he said he’d gave been an antisemite if he wasn’t born a Jew, with a motivation as asinine as “they must have been doing something wrong to be persecuted for 2000 years”, as if he didn’t know what propaganda was), including ignoring executions of Jews in USSR.
He personally ordered THOUSANDS of bombings in Cambodia and in many many other countries, was responsible for multiple coups and replacing democratic leaders with dictators (this is not something you do if you genuinely belive in democracy over communism), and was an overall monster.
I mean really? How many unsubstantiated claims do you want to make, and must I really call them out?
A “mass murderer”, really, can you provide evidence other than IamRight weblinks? No you cannot, a legitimate criticism would be that he turned a blind eye to war crimes, he was not a mass murderer. That’s nothing more than hyperbola.
He was “A Jew but hated his own people”. Wow okay, yeah sure, that’s so egregious it doesn’t require rebuttal.
In any case, where did I state that I rejected criticism? I simply pointed out that Lemmy got a hardon today for dogpiling on this subject and there is no discourse, there is only group think.
So you’re not able to find information about the bombings he personally approved of?
Blind eye? He INSTIGATED the war crimes, intentionally, because he wanted them to happen
https://forward.com/culture/470300/kissinger-at-100-if-it-were-not-for-the-accident-of-my-birth-i-would-be/
You’re pretending it doesn’t require rebuttal because you think big lie rhetorics works with people who know this shit better than you do
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/149898 - “Kissinger Called Jews ‘Self-Serving,’ ‘Bastards’”
You’re ironically engaging in more group think than the rest of us by going all in on contrarianism
I never claimed that discourse doesn’t require rebuttal, in fact invite it. Honest debate is important.
Now I’m not saying this directly to you, but most of the replies I’m getting are not that. And most of the posts and threads about this subject are not that. It’s an echo chamber.
I just don’t want more irrelevant “lol you stupid” responses because they are pointless.
Now I’m probably going to piss you off here. But I don’t put a lot of stock in random .com and .net type links.
If they are .edu or at least well reviewed wiki article then I’ll consider them. Because I can also find links that support any argument and claim any “truth”.
As an example, the world is run by Reptile Aliens. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240595423_The_Reptoid_Hypothesis_Utopian_and_Dystopian_Representational_Motifs_in_David_Icke’s_Alien_Conspiracy_Theory
Your comment makes me able to guess your country of origin up to perfect accuracy! Impressive!
Well then please elaborate. No need to be coy about it, you seem rather confident. Unless of course you are not.
So to reiterate, name the country.
Moronstan.
Oh wow, so insightful. Well done.
Thank you for your entirely pointless and irrelevant comment. I hope you feel better now you have had your voice heard. 🙄
We know very well what he did in his career which is why we hate him.