sorry i got my rhetoric ™️ wrong last time i am just attempting to illustrate the thesis of Tolerance is not a moral precept by Yonatan Zunger so check that out if ur curious thanks babes <3

[Tolerance] is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact.

  • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Pretending that you can’t specifically outlaw explicitly violent and hateful bigotry without someone else outlawing your own peaceful ideology is the mother of all slippery slope fallacies and is almost exclusively trotted out by people who agree with a lot of the ideology of the bigots.

    There’s nobody forcing us to go down any “bad path” just because we protect minorities from extremists. Just like there’s NOT always two valid sides to an issue (see for example flat earthers, young earth creationists and other science deniers), you don’t have to ban democracy in order to ban fascism.

    • bob_wiley@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Violent and hateful acts of bigotry are outlawed and have been for quite a while.

      Intolerance is more vague and happens largely in the mind. Sometimes those things in the mind can come out as speech or actions. Actions that violate the law should be punished, speech or thought would be very dangerous to outlaw.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        violent and hateful acts of bigotry are outlawed and have been for quite a while

        Someone hasn’t been paying attention to all the laws deliberately victimising and discriminating against racial minorities, LGBTQ+ people, poor people, unemployed people and all immigrants (not just the undocumented ones) coming out of Congress, the white house and the states for the last 250 or so years 🙄

        • bob_wiley@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          We can only talk about today, not 250 years ago. What are the laws today which support racial discrimination, for example? Lets get rid for those if they exist. I don’t see how continuing to complain about stuff from 250 years ago, which was struct down long ago, is helpful for moving forward. We can’t change the past, we can only change the outlook for the future.

            • bob_wiley@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              That overview doesn’t really say anything other than ~~ trust us, it’s there ~~

              They want to charge me $32 to read the actual paper, which I’m not going to spend.

              • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Tbf, anyone claiming that every sector of state and federal level American governance isn’t dripping with systemic racism and other discrimination is either arguing in bad faith, wilfully ignorant or an idiot. I have a feeling you might be the trifecta.

                • bob_wiley@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I just always hear people talk about systemic racism, but never point to anything specific which can be changed or fixed. How can anything be fixed if it can’t be defined? That’s isn’t bad faith, ignorant, or idiotic, it’s how you solve problems. Step 1… define it. You’ll never be satisfied if you don’t know specifically what you’re upset about, because you’ll never know when it’s been resolved. Are you just parroting others; is that why you resorted to personal insults instead answering the question for yourself? Instead you sent me to an article I assume you also haven’t read, since it’s behind a paywall.

                  I’m not saying there aren’t things in society that can be improved. Everything can always be improved. But if you want any improvement to happen you need to know what those things are and be able to explain it. This shouldn’t be a hard question for someone who claims to care.

                  I can probably get you started… can we assume gerrymandering is on the list? So then what would the solution be? I’m not an expert on political districts, do we just make in a grid across all the states, maybe scaling the size of the grid up or down to account for population density? I don’t think there is a law that requires gerrymandering, but I’m on board with redrawing the districts to eliminate the madness there.

                  What else?

    • Melpomene@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      People conflate “ban bad actions” and “ban speech” when discussing tolerance; separating those is important. We should ABSOLUTELY ban violence and refuse to acknowledge laws and systems that advocate for those things. We should be both vocal and active in our rejections.

      Speech is a separate issue. As stupid as antivaxxers are, as hateful as TERFs are, I don’t want government telling them they can’t speak. Any law we pass, we should ask ourselves how it might be abused by a bad actor. Better, at least to me, is to out and ruin anyone who expresses hateful, bigoted views.

      • Kit Sorens@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        To be clear, free speech does NOT protect from social consequence. Let them speak. Let them be ostracized, ridiculed, and demeaned for their hateful speech. Use your own free speech to ensure there are 10 voices of reason for every “loving” Christofacist telling them exactly what we took our stance for in 1865 and 1944. All humans are equal. All humans deserve life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and every soapbox is at once a platform and a social noose.

        • Melpomene@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          100% agree, and this is where I come out. Speak your mind as a fascist and get wrecked with social censure.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        If I had a dollar for every time I’ve argued with terfs about the stupidest of misconceptions, I’d probably buy a house…