Alienating liberals doesn’t create more leftists, it only causes people to be dismissive of the term and dig in their heels.
Insulting them rather than educating them does nothing but divide anyone left of center and after the last election I think it’s abundantly clear that we need to be unified rather than divided.
No one is going to argue that left leaning candidates aren’t far from perfect, but they’re a hell of a lot better than the far-right fascists were about to have in power in less than 2 weeks.
Yes, I agree modern liberals are too centrist and ineffective but at the end of the day they’re light-years ahead of the far right, and I’d rather be agitated about having another centrist administration than alarmed and outraged at the onset of fascism.
The liberals have to do their mea culpa, not the left. Right now it will soon be a matter of choosing a side : humanism or fascism. Until now the liberals always chose fascism and called the leftists dangerous extremists.
Choose a side liberals. You made the world what it is today. And you’re now blaming the leftists and asking them to support your insanity. That’s not how it works. Leftists know which side they are fighting for, and they will suffer the consequences. What about you liberals?
I don’t think they really are “light years ahead of the right”. Most of the difference as far as I can tell is in how they talk-- not what they do. Liberals fundamentally just believe in the status quo. MLK Jr saw it the same way when he described " the white moderate" as the greatest obstacle to change.
I’m definitely willing to engage liberals (and even conservatives) in honest conversation when I feel the context warrants the effort. Lemmy rarely seems to qualify.
last election I think it’s abundantly clear that we need to be unified rather than divided.
Who’s “we”? Liberals are not on the left and are ideological enemies of the left: you can’t be unified with people who fundamentally oppose you.
Also, which election? Oh right, you’re one of the those American liberals who think foreigners are fictional characters. That explains why you think leftists would want to ally with the people committing genocide against these “fictional characters”
this is a false dichotomy. in this context, i don’t think there’s much benefit to mollycoddling, and i don’t think there’s much benefit to open hostility. i was simply trying to ask why you chose to reply in such a hostile tone.
it’s also not clear to me how chainweasel is a genocide apologist. could you explain how you reached that conclusion?
Because he thinks it makes him look cool and edgy, especially in an environment like this, where the way to gain popularity is to be the most extreme far left voice in the crowd.
People like that are the vegans of politics: even if you may agree with them in many ways, their repulsive attitude and conduct more than overrules any common views you might share.
People like that are the vegans of politics: even if you may agree with them in many ways, their repulsive attitude and conduct more than overrules any common views you might share.
And the left is just lousy with them. It’s been their main hurdle since time immemorial… Constant infighting and purity tests that prevent them from unifying against a common enemy.
You’re talking as if for over a year (cough decades cough) Palestinian activists hadn’t tried talking to the liberals about their party’s unshakable support for the ongoing genocide.
What’s left to say to people who are “going to pick the lesser of 2 evils” even when you showed them that their pick is still funding the ethnic cleansing of all Palestinian people?
We should talk to general leftist people. Not the liberals. They still value money and profit over people
i probably would have taken that liberal stance long ago, but i had people explain their views to me in a good way that eventually made me rethink some of the things i held as truth. its just that it doesnt happen overnight. im not saying anyone will be convinced but the socialist strategy of getting people talking about political topics in a consistent organized way actually helps a lot here.
I might sound like an asshole and I apologize in advance if I do because it’s not about you specifically in this case but, while I’m glad that you had people in your life who were willing to consistently talk to you and help you rethink some things, the problem to me is exactly that like you said, it does not happen overnight. At all. It actually takes a long time and a lot of trust between people to achieve what was achieved with you in this particular case. And while I am certainly glad to have another ally, time is a luxury in some cases.
Using the case of Palestine, a Palestinian village getting bombed because so many liberals simply don’t value their lives enough and don’t pressure their officials to do something about it, doesn’t have the luxury of time.
As another example, the collapse of our ecosystem is happening every single day. And while we let companies continue business as usual, those liberals think that it’s a topic that can always be postponed. But it can’t. And now we’re past the point of no return and yet we waste time in pointless conversations trying to explain to people that what is happening, is happening.
If some people on the left are willing to and have the time to take liberals by the hand and explain to them things they could look up for themselves if only they weren’t so dismissive and disinterested in the suffering of others, great. They surely have my thank. But I don’t think as a general strategy makes sense to wait for such liberal people to suddenly decide that importent issues are finally important enough to them to be acted upon.
Those issues have always been important and worthwhile. Their previous lack of interest about such topics is their own failure.
Using the case of Palestine, a Palestinian village getting bombed because so many liberals simply don’t value their lives enough and don’t pressure their officials to do something about it, doesn’t have the luxury of time.
It’s disingenuous and unhelpful to put the entirety of the blame for this on liberals… You are really letting a whole lot of awful people off the hook when you do this.
I feel like “liberal” has become the under-educated leftist’s version of “everyone that disagrees with me is a fascist” meme.
That assumption isn’t true. Socialists aren’t born that way. By abandoning them all with blanket statements, we’d simply self-fulfill that prophecy. Even US libertarian militias, a peak of liberalist ideology, have sometimes sided with antifascists over fascists (see: Redneck Revolt lines of affiliation with American Pit Vipers).
You’re referencing a real trend, and there’s a kernel of truth behind it, however it’s harmful to the socialist movement to assume that as a universal inevitability.
By telling potential allies they’re as bad as the enemy of course! It’ll start working any day now.
The leftists have their own magical thinking and it’s seems be to inherient to the movement. But unlike rightist magcial thinking, one cannot bully their way to a leftist paradise so right wins and will always win until the leftists compromise. No sign of that happening in my life time.
I mean, liberalism and those who support the current system are bad, yes. That doesn’t mean it is necessarily deiliberate, but the Capitalist and by extension Imperialist system most of us on Lemmy live in is an extreme source of cruelty and brutality worldwide.
Don’t know what you mean by “magical thinking” though.
Apparently to some that’s the goal. I had a chat with a leftist a while back while the US election was in full swing and she was absolutely against the concept of voting for a lesser evil, since the worse things get, the more people will turn to leftist extremism, which is a win in her book. Suffice it to say, that talk made me anything but sympathetic of her view…
Calling US leftists extremists is the funniest joke I’ve read today!
Truth is liberals are much more extremists than most leftists. At some point they will need to realise it and take responsibility for the shit they did for so long.
And that is an accelerationist. Anyone champing at the bit for a violent revolution is deeply naive or deranged. We need to put the brakes on at all levels and speeding up extremism will only get innocents killed. The status quo sucks but anyone who has lived in a war torn nation can tell you a chained rabid dog is better than a loose one.
You’re already committing genocide and killing innocents by the hundreds of thousands, there is no chain on the rabid dog that is the USA. Fuck comfortable US liberals who believe they should never have to be subject to what they do to foreigners: anything that destabilizes the US and brings the collapse of its empire closer is a win.
Unpopular opinion:
Alienating liberals doesn’t create more leftists, it only causes people to be dismissive of the term and dig in their heels.
Insulting them rather than educating them does nothing but divide anyone left of center and after the last election I think it’s abundantly clear that we need to be unified rather than divided.
No one is going to argue that left leaning candidates aren’t far from perfect, but they’re a hell of a lot better than the far-right fascists were about to have in power in less than 2 weeks.
Yes, I agree modern liberals are too centrist and ineffective but at the end of the day they’re light-years ahead of the far right, and I’d rather be agitated about having another centrist administration than alarmed and outraged at the onset of fascism.
The liberals have to do their mea culpa, not the left. Right now it will soon be a matter of choosing a side : humanism or fascism. Until now the liberals always chose fascism and called the leftists dangerous extremists.
Choose a side liberals. You made the world what it is today. And you’re now blaming the leftists and asking them to support your insanity. That’s not how it works. Leftists know which side they are fighting for, and they will suffer the consequences. What about you liberals?
I don’t think they really are “light years ahead of the right”. Most of the difference as far as I can tell is in how they talk-- not what they do. Liberals fundamentally just believe in the status quo. MLK Jr saw it the same way when he described " the white moderate" as the greatest obstacle to change.
I’m definitely willing to engage liberals (and even conservatives) in honest conversation when I feel the context warrants the effort. Lemmy rarely seems to qualify.
I think we’re about to find out, in the coming months, just how “far ahead” of the right they are.
Who’s “we”? Liberals are not on the left and are ideological enemies of the left: you can’t be unified with people who fundamentally oppose you.
Also, which election? Oh right, you’re one of the those American liberals who think foreigners are fictional characters. That explains why you think leftists would want to ally with the people committing genocide against these “fictional characters”
I definitely feel like we can be unified against things like: islamic extremism, climate change denial, fascist government policies, etc no?
what is the benefit of writing a response with such a hostile tone?
What’s the benefit of mollycoddleing genocide apologists like Chainweasel??
this is a false dichotomy. in this context, i don’t think there’s much benefit to mollycoddling, and i don’t think there’s much benefit to open hostility. i was simply trying to ask why you chose to reply in such a hostile tone.
it’s also not clear to me how chainweasel is a genocide apologist. could you explain how you reached that conclusion?
Because he thinks it makes him look cool and edgy, especially in an environment like this, where the way to gain popularity is to be the most extreme far left voice in the crowd.
People like that are the vegans of politics: even if you may agree with them in many ways, their repulsive attitude and conduct more than overrules any common views you might share.
And the left is just lousy with them. It’s been their main hurdle since time immemorial… Constant infighting and purity tests that prevent them from unifying against a common enemy.
Well you see, I reached that conclusion by reading their comments and not being deliberately disingenuous.
Liberals facilitate fascism
That’s why it’s important to communicate with them rather than alienating them.
You’re talking as if for over a year (cough decades cough) Palestinian activists hadn’t tried talking to the liberals about their party’s unshakable support for the ongoing genocide.
What’s left to say to people who are “going to pick the lesser of 2 evils” even when you showed them that their pick is still funding the ethnic cleansing of all Palestinian people?
We should talk to general leftist people. Not the liberals. They still value money and profit over people
i probably would have taken that liberal stance long ago, but i had people explain their views to me in a good way that eventually made me rethink some of the things i held as truth. its just that it doesnt happen overnight. im not saying anyone will be convinced but the socialist strategy of getting people talking about political topics in a consistent organized way actually helps a lot here.
I might sound like an asshole and I apologize in advance if I do because it’s not about you specifically in this case but, while I’m glad that you had people in your life who were willing to consistently talk to you and help you rethink some things, the problem to me is exactly that like you said, it does not happen overnight. At all. It actually takes a long time and a lot of trust between people to achieve what was achieved with you in this particular case. And while I am certainly glad to have another ally, time is a luxury in some cases.
Using the case of Palestine, a Palestinian village getting bombed because so many liberals simply don’t value their lives enough and don’t pressure their officials to do something about it, doesn’t have the luxury of time.
As another example, the collapse of our ecosystem is happening every single day. And while we let companies continue business as usual, those liberals think that it’s a topic that can always be postponed. But it can’t. And now we’re past the point of no return and yet we waste time in pointless conversations trying to explain to people that what is happening, is happening.
If some people on the left are willing to and have the time to take liberals by the hand and explain to them things they could look up for themselves if only they weren’t so dismissive and disinterested in the suffering of others, great. They surely have my thank. But I don’t think as a general strategy makes sense to wait for such liberal people to suddenly decide that importent issues are finally important enough to them to be acted upon.
Those issues have always been important and worthwhile. Their previous lack of interest about such topics is their own failure.
It’s disingenuous and unhelpful to put the entirety of the blame for this on liberals… You are really letting a whole lot of awful people off the hook when you do this.
I feel like “liberal” has become the under-educated leftist’s version of “everyone that disagrees with me is a fascist” meme.
Why? They will side with fascism over leftism every time.
That assumption isn’t true. Socialists aren’t born that way. By abandoning them all with blanket statements, we’d simply self-fulfill that prophecy. Even US libertarian militias, a peak of liberalist ideology, have sometimes sided with antifascists over fascists (see: Redneck Revolt lines of affiliation with American Pit Vipers).
You’re referencing a real trend, and there’s a kernel of truth behind it, however it’s harmful to the socialist movement to assume that as a universal inevitability.
There aren’t enough leftists to win with violence, so our only hope is to win with dialogue. What’s your plan?
Dialogue can’t change the mode of production, so we must create more leftists so revolution becomes feasible.
agreed – how do we make more leftists though?
Talking and organizing.
Exactly. Talking. Violence isn’t going to make more leftists.
That said, call me paranoid but I think three-letter organizations are the main obstacle to organizing. I don’t know what to do about that.
Revolution will be required eventually, which was the original point.
By telling potential allies they’re as bad as the enemy of course! It’ll start working any day now.
The leftists have their own magical thinking and it’s seems be to inherient to the movement. But unlike rightist magcial thinking, one cannot bully their way to a leftist paradise so right wins and will always win until the leftists compromise. No sign of that happening in my life time.
I mean, liberalism and those who support the current system are bad, yes. That doesn’t mean it is necessarily deiliberate, but the Capitalist and by extension Imperialist system most of us on Lemmy live in is an extreme source of cruelty and brutality worldwide.
Don’t know what you mean by “magical thinking” though.
Liberals are the enemy though.
I disagree, so my plan is just violence
thats not an unpopular opinion though? maybe on the west? revolutions happen by convincing your fellow brothers, not by force or manipulation.
this is the hard part imo, we all have to go against the media machine.
Welcome to the world, this is not the US
Also, nah, socialists don’t want to befriend fascists like Biden or Harris
Apparently to some that’s the goal. I had a chat with a leftist a while back while the US election was in full swing and she was absolutely against the concept of voting for a lesser evil, since the worse things get, the more people will turn to leftist extremism, which is a win in her book. Suffice it to say, that talk made me anything but sympathetic of her view…
Calling US leftists extremists is the funniest joke I’ve read today!
Truth is liberals are much more extremists than most leftists. At some point they will need to realise it and take responsibility for the shit they did for so long.
And that is an accelerationist. Anyone champing at the bit for a violent revolution is deeply naive or deranged. We need to put the brakes on at all levels and speeding up extremism will only get innocents killed. The status quo sucks but anyone who has lived in a war torn nation can tell you a chained rabid dog is better than a loose one.
You’re already committing genocide and killing innocents by the hundreds of thousands, there is no chain on the rabid dog that is the USA. Fuck comfortable US liberals who believe they should never have to be subject to what they do to foreigners: anything that destabilizes the US and brings the collapse of its empire closer is a win.
I am?
Push an American liberal on their disgusting views and they inevitably try some bad faith troll, like pretending to be illiterate as you are doing
Removed by mod
See? You’re deliberately playing dumb.
as has been pointed out and you keep demonstrating you’re a bad faith troll. dont expect us to engage with you.
Currently, the usual settler-colonialism internally as well as the genocide of Palestinians externally.