I think it depends. Lets say you dont have an opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, thats understandable. It takes a decent bit of information to form your opinion.
But let’s say you don’t have an opinion on trans rights. That will raise some red flags. It should be pretty simple to gather an opinion on that.
But if you veer off the Good Guys™ script even remotely you gotta keep it quiet or people will lose their shit so it’s really hard to talk out the finer details with anyone.
Special Announcement:
Turn your brains off everyone! Be as smug as you can! Don’t ever ask or answer questions, we assure you that if you follow us you’ll always be on the right side of history! Everyone who doesn’t subscribe to the Good Guys Team is literally a Nazi and it’s okay to hurt Nazis, right?
You don’t understand why this is an emotional topic for people? Trans people (including trans kids) often commit suicide without gender-affirming care. It’s a life-and-death issue.
I’m not saying that there’s no room for logic. Far from it. But when people blast you because they think that you sound like a bigot, that’s why. This isn’t just a difference in opinion.
Yeah… But when people make up strawmen about “centrists” and affiliate them with the KKK I gotta say my piece because tribalism easily leads to a bad time too
That’s really only true economically. On social issues the US is much more in alignment with the rest of the developed world. And of course, as always, there’s a lot of variation by US state.
While the bothsiderist narratives typically propped up by the corporate/conservative media (think NYT, CNN, MSBNC as being some of the very worst offenders) drive me crazy and I think will ultimately destroy this country, I think I know what you mean. One place that exhibits this in nearly perfect form is the Boing Boing forums. I just saw another set of thoughtful conversations completely disappeared, Soviet-style on their forums, and this is because someone disagreed with some of the usual suspects/moderators/moderators’ pals on there, maybe 1%. It is truly breathtaking to watch, and even their terms of service are daring anyone to call them on their obvious bias:
Enforcement may be lax or draconian as befits the whims of the Entity. The rude will be eaten first.
Rules lawyering will fail. Be sure to read our exciting Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
(Emphasis mine). It’s fairly common to see comments from the in-group that clearly violate their rule: “Don’t post or encourage insulting, bullying, victim-blaming, racist, sexist, violent, homophobic or transphobic remarks.” They will bully and insult anyone they feel like that is not in the blessed clique. Same goes for racism and sexism, if it’s aimed at groups that are considered of privilege. The answer to sexism and racism is not to give a megaphone to people engaging in misandry and hatred of white people…it is completely unhelpful.
None of this kind of thing helps to further a liberal/leftist cause. It only makes a mockery of liberal and leftist values, but I think their moderators and their clique just cannot see that.
There is quite a distance between the bothsiderist fake “centrist” and someone asking serious questions (in good faith - I’m not talking about the tactics of the Joe Rogans and the Tucker Carlsons and the Alex Jones of the world, doing their cutesy “Just Asking Questions”, or 'JAQ" technique ) and differs in small degrees from a certain clique.
I definitely appreciate that I’m able to talk to people more here. It’s the primary reason I left reddit. I spent the first 10 years or so on that site perfectly in good standing and in the last couple years I was banned from several subreddits for not thinking exactly like the mods. It’s a form of gaslighting when they delete comments that aren’t parroting the hivemind, makes me think I’ve gone nuts.
I suspect it’s a tendency for most groups to spin out. BoingBoing was not always like it is now. Now the comment section seems to be run by a set of people that seem to have little interest in the “happy mutant” roots of BoingBoing, but instead, reinforcing an extremely homogeneous and quite narrow view of politics and engaging in things like oppression olympics.
I honestly would not be that bothered by a set of moderators running a little fiefdom in a site that is clearly dying off, if it wasn’t for the fact that I’m not sure BB is an isolated case, and for the almost inevitable result, which is to probably crank out more Republicans, since anyone that is kind of low-info related to politics and runs into this kind of groupthink will think that all of the left or liberals are this ridiculous and intolerant, and it is anything but. Meanwhile, places with algorithms are shoveling awful Nazi-sympathetic content into the minds of people just trying to connect with remote family members and share pics of pets and grandchildren.
This has been my experience as well. Let me be upfront and say that I was formerly part of the far-right echo chamber for quite a long time, but recently I’ve recognized that I’ve been duped and have been actively working on seeking out other perspectives, in the hope of getting a more accurate world view. When you ask questions about political issues that are “common sense” to most people, people often become sceptical of you, especially in groups. This makes sense, because people on the extreme sides of politics often use targetted questions in order to spread and/or defend their own opinions on topics. Most echo chambers have as a goal to recruit more people, so people in them actively try to influence others into their own beliefs. I also did this when I was part of the echo chamber.
Currently I want to discuss these kinds of things with others to get more perspectives, and also to share my own perspectives with them, so either other people are trying to sniff out the extremists that are trying to influence them, or they are overtaken by group-think/tribalism and don’t want anything to do with people that have different opinions on topics to protect the group. I couldn’t say, maybe both of them. It really depends on the people you talk to.
From my experience it’s often fine talking about these things one-on-one if they’re open to it, but the larger the group gets, the more everyone adheres to the “safe” political views, and the more sceptical they become of any outliers. Everyone is just trying not to get shunned is my best guess, seeking defence in the group, but who knows. I also wish it was different, it’s tiring to hide your real thoughts for a prolonged time. It sucks that being quiet when others are talking about it is also suspicious, even if I’m not comfortable talking about things because of my limited knowledge. Even probing with slightly controversial things is seen as suspicious, while your honest intention is just to hear their perspectives on it.
To solve this my strategy has become to blend in with the political views of whatever group I’m currently in, and limit my actually political thoughts and ideas to small groups of 1-3 people, or one-on-one. Of course people don’t like this idea, but this problem really exists for people that are honestly trying to hear others’ perspectives, but it also exists for people in echo chambers trying to influence others.
I don’t know, maybe there’s still a bias caused by the time I was in an echo chamber and did actually try to influence people, which was not received well. Now that I think about it talking about my political views with others is currently better than it was before, but there’s still a fear of being shunned for my political views that remains from my echo chamber time. I’m afraid people jump to conclusions too quickly based on who you associate with, but I’m not sure if that’s even the case with most people if you’re not trying to influence them. Maybe they’re also in an echo chamber, I can’t currently tell. When I was in an echo chamber myself I thought that others were the ones that were part of echo chambers, the ones with the cognitive dissonance, but it was actually me it turns out, so I really don’t know if that’s another false belief. I guess I just have to find out sometime and try bringing up controversial topics in groups again.
Yeah I think seeking the right answer is itself always the right answer. My main beef with people is usually not their beliefs so much as their level of conviction. It’s kind of scary how all or nothing these topics can get. Then again I might be talking to a bunch of angsty teens here for all I know.
Because I at least try to have conversations with people instead of calling every centrist and Republican Nazis right out of the gate. This whole thread is smug af because they think everyone who isn’t auto-agreeing to every single left talking point is one of the bad guys.
If more people attempted conversation there would be less animosity. Things would get resolved quicker. But it’s all children throwing tantrums at each other and the people trying to hold conversations are being drowned out. Actually worse, they’re getting lumped in with the Nazis like in this comic so… keep it up, because you’re one of the Good Guys!
You’re free to decide that for yourself. There have likely been many wars in the past fought in the name of tribalism, which didn’t need to be fought. Us vs them apparently feels too good to talk things out.
I consider myself left-leaning but I also believe that anyone who’s painting KKK hoods on all their political opponents is dumb and is doing us a major disservice if we want to actually accomplish anything.
does it count as centrism to refrain from expressing any opinions because you think you aren’t informed enough?
I think it depends. Lets say you dont have an opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, thats understandable. It takes a decent bit of information to form your opinion.
But let’s say you don’t have an opinion on trans rights. That will raise some red flags. It should be pretty simple to gather an opinion on that.
But if you veer off the Good Guys™ script even remotely you gotta keep it quiet or people will lose their shit so it’s really hard to talk out the finer details with anyone.
Special Announcement: Turn your brains off everyone! Be as smug as you can! Don’t ever ask or answer questions, we assure you that if you follow us you’ll always be on the right side of history! Everyone who doesn’t subscribe to the Good Guys Team is literally a Nazi and it’s okay to hurt Nazis, right?
If you think anyone should have less rights than the other because of their sexuality or appearance, you are an asshole. There’s no way around that.
Exhibit A… I never said that
Classic straw man fallacy.
You don’t understand why this is an emotional topic for people? Trans people (including trans kids) often commit suicide without gender-affirming care. It’s a life-and-death issue.
I’m not saying that there’s no room for logic. Far from it. But when people blast you because they think that you sound like a bigot, that’s why. This isn’t just a difference in opinion.
Yeah… But when people make up strawmen about “centrists” and affiliate them with the KKK I gotta say my piece because tribalism easily leads to a bad time too
Centrists weren’t the Nazis. Centrists were the ones who looked the other way and did nothing while people got hauled away to death camps.
(Also, talking about US politics is weird, because what’s considered “centrist” in the US is actually right-wing in the rest of the developed world.)
That’s really only true economically. On social issues the US is much more in alignment with the rest of the developed world. And of course, as always, there’s a lot of variation by US state.
While the bothsiderist narratives typically propped up by the corporate/conservative media (think NYT, CNN, MSBNC as being some of the very worst offenders) drive me crazy and I think will ultimately destroy this country, I think I know what you mean. One place that exhibits this in nearly perfect form is the Boing Boing forums. I just saw another set of thoughtful conversations completely disappeared, Soviet-style on their forums, and this is because someone disagreed with some of the usual suspects/moderators/moderators’ pals on there, maybe 1%. It is truly breathtaking to watch, and even their terms of service are daring anyone to call them on their obvious bias:
(Emphasis mine). It’s fairly common to see comments from the in-group that clearly violate their rule: “Don’t post or encourage insulting, bullying, victim-blaming, racist, sexist, violent, homophobic or transphobic remarks.” They will bully and insult anyone they feel like that is not in the blessed clique. Same goes for racism and sexism, if it’s aimed at groups that are considered of privilege. The answer to sexism and racism is not to give a megaphone to people engaging in misandry and hatred of white people…it is completely unhelpful.
None of this kind of thing helps to further a liberal/leftist cause. It only makes a mockery of liberal and leftist values, but I think their moderators and their clique just cannot see that.
There is quite a distance between the bothsiderist fake “centrist” and someone asking serious questions (in good faith - I’m not talking about the tactics of the Joe Rogans and the Tucker Carlsons and the Alex Jones of the world, doing their cutesy “Just Asking Questions”, or 'JAQ" technique ) and differs in small degrees from a certain clique.
I definitely appreciate that I’m able to talk to people more here. It’s the primary reason I left reddit. I spent the first 10 years or so on that site perfectly in good standing and in the last couple years I was banned from several subreddits for not thinking exactly like the mods. It’s a form of gaslighting when they delete comments that aren’t parroting the hivemind, makes me think I’ve gone nuts.
I suspect it’s a tendency for most groups to spin out. BoingBoing was not always like it is now. Now the comment section seems to be run by a set of people that seem to have little interest in the “happy mutant” roots of BoingBoing, but instead, reinforcing an extremely homogeneous and quite narrow view of politics and engaging in things like oppression olympics.
I honestly would not be that bothered by a set of moderators running a little fiefdom in a site that is clearly dying off, if it wasn’t for the fact that I’m not sure BB is an isolated case, and for the almost inevitable result, which is to probably crank out more Republicans, since anyone that is kind of low-info related to politics and runs into this kind of groupthink will think that all of the left or liberals are this ridiculous and intolerant, and it is anything but. Meanwhile, places with algorithms are shoveling awful Nazi-sympathetic content into the minds of people just trying to connect with remote family members and share pics of pets and grandchildren.
This has been my experience as well. Let me be upfront and say that I was formerly part of the far-right echo chamber for quite a long time, but recently I’ve recognized that I’ve been duped and have been actively working on seeking out other perspectives, in the hope of getting a more accurate world view. When you ask questions about political issues that are “common sense” to most people, people often become sceptical of you, especially in groups. This makes sense, because people on the extreme sides of politics often use targetted questions in order to spread and/or defend their own opinions on topics. Most echo chambers have as a goal to recruit more people, so people in them actively try to influence others into their own beliefs. I also did this when I was part of the echo chamber.
Currently I want to discuss these kinds of things with others to get more perspectives, and also to share my own perspectives with them, so either other people are trying to sniff out the extremists that are trying to influence them, or they are overtaken by group-think/tribalism and don’t want anything to do with people that have different opinions on topics to protect the group. I couldn’t say, maybe both of them. It really depends on the people you talk to.
From my experience it’s often fine talking about these things one-on-one if they’re open to it, but the larger the group gets, the more everyone adheres to the “safe” political views, and the more sceptical they become of any outliers. Everyone is just trying not to get shunned is my best guess, seeking defence in the group, but who knows. I also wish it was different, it’s tiring to hide your real thoughts for a prolonged time. It sucks that being quiet when others are talking about it is also suspicious, even if I’m not comfortable talking about things because of my limited knowledge. Even probing with slightly controversial things is seen as suspicious, while your honest intention is just to hear their perspectives on it.
To solve this my strategy has become to blend in with the political views of whatever group I’m currently in, and limit my actually political thoughts and ideas to small groups of 1-3 people, or one-on-one. Of course people don’t like this idea, but this problem really exists for people that are honestly trying to hear others’ perspectives, but it also exists for people in echo chambers trying to influence others.
I don’t know, maybe there’s still a bias caused by the time I was in an echo chamber and did actually try to influence people, which was not received well. Now that I think about it talking about my political views with others is currently better than it was before, but there’s still a fear of being shunned for my political views that remains from my echo chamber time. I’m afraid people jump to conclusions too quickly based on who you associate with, but I’m not sure if that’s even the case with most people if you’re not trying to influence them. Maybe they’re also in an echo chamber, I can’t currently tell. When I was in an echo chamber myself I thought that others were the ones that were part of echo chambers, the ones with the cognitive dissonance, but it was actually me it turns out, so I really don’t know if that’s another false belief. I guess I just have to find out sometime and try bringing up controversial topics in groups again.
Yeah I think seeking the right answer is itself always the right answer. My main beef with people is usually not their beliefs so much as their level of conviction. It’s kind of scary how all or nothing these topics can get. Then again I might be talking to a bunch of angsty teens here for all I know.
I always assume I’m conversing w precocious children here; it’s the only way that the politics here make any sense at all. Lol
lmao how do you type this and think its the other people who are smug
Because I at least try to have conversations with people instead of calling every centrist and Republican Nazis right out of the gate. This whole thread is smug af because they think everyone who isn’t auto-agreeing to every single left talking point is one of the bad guys.
If more people attempted conversation there would be less animosity. Things would get resolved quicker. But it’s all children throwing tantrums at each other and the people trying to hold conversations are being drowned out. Actually worse, they’re getting lumped in with the Nazis like in this comic so… keep it up, because you’re one of the Good Guys!
So if more people attempted conversations like you, there would be less animosity?
You’re free to decide that for yourself. There have likely been many wars in the past fought in the name of tribalism, which didn’t need to be fought. Us vs them apparently feels too good to talk things out.
I consider myself left-leaning but I also believe that anyone who’s painting KKK hoods on all their political opponents is dumb and is doing us a major disservice if we want to actually accomplish anything.