Glad to see I’m not the only one having rambling problems. Hope you’re ready for a swim (of an alphabetic variety).

But just quickly wanted to get in that I very much dislike cars, just a convenient example because of cars being notoriously long to get in the Soviet union.

the soviet union is the primary reason why I shy away from communism (technically state capitalism but that doesn’t matter).

any system has successfully met all the fundamental basic needs of health, shelter and food, and is no longer capitalist.

I’m using the word capitalist the classical (marx) sense of private ownership of the means of production. Companies are capitalist and coops are socialist. one is privately owned, the other collectively.

<sidenote> Yes. Soviet Union was capitalist. state ownership isn’t socialism, only collective ownership is, and just calling them collectives is not collective ownership. </sidenote>

Freely associated groups, who set rules amongst themselves? Doesn’t sound very anarchist at all, sounds quick democratic

Why? If there are no hierarchical structures, Eg the rules are made collectively, why would it not be anarchism? On the democratic part I would say that without majority rule, which is still rule and thus would be opposed by anarchists, it shouldn’t be called democracy as the original meaning of the word is “people rule”.

Sure, Europeans states are free to do what they want, with certain restrictions they agree to by being part of the EU.

States are fundamentally archic structures, and the EU is even more archic. They are all managed top-down. You have someone at the top of the pyramid who says what will be done. That’s archy. That’s vertical organisation.

Anarchy is managed differently, through horizontal organisation. Instead of choosing people who will have power over you, you use your own social potential to build collective power to resist the archic power. I view anarchy as a fluid machine. Like a water bubble in 0g. The parts of the machine (people) can move around and bounce off of each-other which changes the shape of the machine. Every cog shapes the machine to fit them. Archy is a machine made of steel someone comes along, sets up the shape, and if a gear doesn’t fit they get ground to dust. Anarchy is chaotic organisation. It doesn’t do in-groups and out-groups, instead seeing the world as a single group, and empowering everyone in that group to find their place. In such conditions any harmful activity is completely pointless.

Bad people will always exist. But archy rewards bad behaviour by allowing them to get to the top. Anarchy is nothing more than saying “people are imperfect, so no-one should have the right to rule, as every ruler will make mistakes”.

On the topic of defence. There is no need to have centralized defence. decentralized defence forces can work wonders. If someone comes and attacks your group the entire group will defend itself. Why should it fall on anyone specific. There are many ways to defend and an anarchist group would encourage everyone to defend the group in their own way.

supply and demand aren’t made up things we can leave behind in a post capitalist world.

Maybe supply and demand aren’t, but economics are: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionC.html#secc12. (If you didn’t notice the AFAQ has different sections, The complete A4 PDF is 3077 pages)

Money is great. It’s just accounting, and allows for greater personal choice

Money is one of the foundations of archy. as soon as you have a concrete number that is associated with a single person those people have power and authority over those with a smaller number. You can’t have a fair society with money. And if everyone’s basic needs are met then why do you even need it. how can you have an economy if people can just opt out of it.

Small freely associating groups are no longer possible we have cities of millions.

Why? Computers have allowed people to stay connected to hundreds of people. And even though it’s currently used to incentivise consumerist isolationism, it doesn’t have to be. Why do you think that millions of groups of millions of people can’t work without some centralized oversight? I would say they would work better because they won’t have the bottlenecks of centralisation. Why can’t every apartment block be a commune? Why can’t the chef that lives next door make the meals for all of you? Why can’t the cleaner clean all of your appartments? Why can’t that truck driver bring the chef fresh produce from the farmer he’s known for 20 years so all of you can eat and be merry? Why can’t that work in a city of millions? If an apartment block doesn’t have a chef someone who wants to go to the nearby school and learn. Why does society need to be made up of people who don’t know each-other, doing everything they can to screw over everyone else because that’s how you get ahead in life? AND WHY SHOULD WE LIVE IN A SYSTEM THAT ENCOURAGES IT? That’s all archy is. Means for awful people to screw over others. If not everyone is good then no-one is capable of rule.

are you seriously suggesting not having a police force? Not having courts?

ABSOLUTELY! ACAB! (Originally an anarchist slogan until it’s mainstream adoption during BLM) The police are professional bullies, no matter what shape they take. If the responsibility of the enforcement of rules falls on a single group, that group makes the rules. Law enforcement should be the duty of everyone. you see something doing something you think is wrong, go up to them and tell them to stop. If other people are around ask them what they think is going on. no-one else is responsible for your safety but yourself, by keeping others safe. Tit-for-tat. By protecting those around you, you’re creating a culture of mutual protection so when you’re in trouble that culture will help you. The courts and police were not meant to protect people. They were made to protect property and the ruling class. The only reason they protect people is because the people that threaten the ruling class often threaten normal people as well. (Also the facade of justice gives them plenty of bootlickers) For every person that got justice out of the courts there is another that got screwed over. For every woman that sent their abuser to jail there is another whose life was screwed owner by false allegations.

Justice does not come from books and laws. but from the reactions of people. in a communal justice system the shame of being outed is far more motivating for not committing crimes than fear of jail. Just look at how effective christian rule was during the medieval ages.

Anarchy is about creating a culture that opposes archy. A culture that makes the security of all the people the responsibility of all the people. A culture that ensures everyone has a place in society that they have chosen, not been pushed into. A culture that doesn’t assume anyone needs to be governed.

To me anarchy is the society of kindness. Where the power consolidates among those that gain the most respect. Respect that, if abused, will be taken away.

Anarchy is society in it’s most complicatedly simple, chaotically ordered, and collectively individual. It’s my reason to live. So I hope you can see why these ideas matter to me.

saksa comes from saxony, which was historically a major power in the region. (My knowledge comes from CK2)

As an Anarchist I’m irresistibly compelled to respond to this in order to spread propaganda. (Sorry for the ramble I don’t know how to write concisely.)

To start I don’t use communism, democracy or even socialism to refer to my beliefs. I use anarchy. That’s because anarchy in my mind is concrete. no-archy. against hierarchy. Even though anarchy does follow the classical definition of communism, and is socialism, as in worker-owned means of production. These words are unnecessary as anarchy does the trick. And communism has too much bloody history to most people, me included.

Anarchy is not possible in the current cultural space. Anarchy requires a complete transformation of all parts of society, including culture. A lot of your problems come from having underlying archic (hierarchical/capitalist) beliefs. For an anarchist society to succeed these beliefs must be abandoned.

This is because of some of the variants I think are a bit generous in their belief that people won’t act selfishly:

This is a comprehensive answer on a popular FAQ: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca215

Anarcho-communism? Sure, if …

This entire paragraph is based in tribalism. An inherent idea that people belong to distinct groups that compete with each-other. It is one of those archic beliefs that I mentioned. There are many different responses to this but I believe in federation (Thanks to this video: https://youtu.be/lrTzjaXskUU timestamp 36:44). This system envisions the anarchist society not as distinct groups but a large number of intersecting groups. No group would “raid” other groups because they have friends in all those groups. On top of that everyone in an anarchist society should be educated enough to understand that everyone in the society has a role to play and hurting them is hurting the society which is in turn hurting them.

On your opinions on money. It seems you do not understand how an anarchist economy would function. In anarchy you wouldn’t buy something, you would order it from the person or co-op who makes those things. Generally used items like food and clothes would probably be available for free, but anything requiring construction would be ordered. This allows you to receive a completely personalized item. Otherwise people would just work for no reason and end up with things they don’t need. I don’t see any point in producing an item just so it would sit on a shelf somewhere. There might be a small storage for conveyor-produced items in order to reduce order times, but in general retail wouldn’t need to exist.

Also due to your usage of “managers wield influence” I can see you haven’t read any socialist theory as in socialism and anarchism the managers are responsible to the workers. If they are acting in corrupt ways that’s because the workers don’t care enough to uncover it and change the manager. And when it comes to “oversee production for their own personal gain” I am left wondering what personal gain would that be. without money there is no incentive to hoard and if that personal gain is abusive then it will be discovered and the manager changed.

Else you’re left with a system where you’re waiting years to get a car,

The fact that you think cars are a thing in a socialist society again reveals your inexperience. Cars are a fundamentally capitalist construct that have no use in socialist societies.

finite resources but unlimited desires.

The unlimited desires (that I’m interpreting as material as spiritual and mental desires don’t need resources) are exactly the thing that anarchy seeks to destroy. It is a poisonous mindset cultivated by capitalism that leads to catastrophe (for example look out the window). It is incompatible with continued existence and the destruction of it in an individual is the first step towards anarchism. It was made with the specific need to fuel the hyper-consumerism of the modern age. You get told from everywhere that you need more stuff. Understanding that you don’t is fundamental to all anti-capitalist thought.

I want to suffix this post with a point that if any of this comes across as rude then that was not my intention. The points made reflect my own ideas and opinions and other anarchist will have their own. I hope you consider what I wrote (and again sorry for the rambling.)

Anti-statism. Anarchism is against all hierarchy. Including class.

I wonder if the people who downvoted actually listened to the song, or just did it based on the name.

Left-Right (Left-Right) and Authoritarian-Libertarian (up-down).

Sorry! I over-reacted. You are absolutely right. I am just used to the communist/syndicalist side and so when seeing someone talk about anarchism being against taxes the mind immediately jumps to the an-cap conclusion.

However I wonder how does individualist anarchism deal with wealth inequality? And the above mentioned economic freedoms limiting political freedom?

Anarchists argue that capitalism is an oppressive hierarchy that should be dismantled. That the ruling class is using money as a tool to oppress the poor and restrict their freedom.

Anarchism is a leftist/socialist way of thought. It does not protect the rich. Any anarchist who protects the rich is an oxymoron. Like the “anarcho-capitalists”.

For further reading: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-secf1

If this is sarcasm, then this is a conflict of terms that I thought about including in the meme but decided against for a snappier message. Listening can be read as either “obeying” or “hearing out”. This meme was made with the “hearing out” meaning in mind.

If its not and you use that meaning of listen then Yeah, Ain’t that great.

I should post a follow-up saying “You don’t have to listen to people that have no intention of listening to you”.

One needs to listen to a neo-nazi to understand them, help them. The problem is that they won’t listen to us because being angry is easier.

This is in the context of voting. Voting blue will achieve nothing other than delaying. The point of the meme is to encourage people to not just vote, but to actively engage in politics in order to make things better. Basically the same thing you said.

I probably should have put a check on the blue and remove the third option. That would have made it clearer.

Nothing wrong with snoozing. Just don’t expect it to fix anything.

So this was an undercurrent I wanted to address: are you suggesting that Americans not vote in the 2024 general election?

As the meme says voting blue means a 4 year snooze. I am not telling anyone whether they should vote or not. Just pointing out how I see the current election. The points you make are sensible and I think if I were in the USA I would vote because of the reasons you listed.

I’m copying some quotes from the FAQ that I think fit in this conversation.
But considering the state of the US I think that at the moment voting is a useful tactic to buy time for organizing, not a solution.

J.2.8: anarchists don’t just say “don’t vote”, we say “organise” as well.

J2.5 last paragraph: […] anarchists urge abstentionism in order to encourage activity, not apathy. Not voting is not enough, and anarchists urge people to organise and resist as well.

And when it comes to the last paragraph I must admit I am short of ideas. All of the groups you listed have a chance of helping, organization doesn’t need to start with a political group, once you have a group together you can start talking about anarchist organization and see how people react.

As an anarchist I believe that revolution starts with the people. Get enough people together with a common goal (or a shared dream if you want to be poetic) and you will have a revolution. This might seem pointless since you’re so small, but every revolution needs to start somewhere. And I believe only a revolution can fix the USA right now.

There are also some anarchist orgs like http://iww.org. I wish I knew more.

They will seize control of everything and make illegal anything they don’t control.

That’s why it’s important to create these groups now. Once the fascist are in power it’s too late.

The third box is smaller to reflect that it isn’t a “real” option. I only added it because I thought only the two wouldn’t be fitting for this community (and also complaining without providing an alternative is not useful). It’s more of an open question. eg “You need to do something else because voting will not stop fascism.”

In the FAQ there are questions like J.2.9 “What do anarchist do instead of voting?” and J.7.4 “What would a social revolution involve?”. These might help answer your questions.

In general there is no easy solution. For Americans to fix their system they need to fight for real democracy. I think trying to get rid of FPTP is a good start. However I do not put much faith in any election reform succeeding. My personal (european (although it shouldn’t matter)) opinion is that americans should try do build communities outside of government control so when things go bad they have someone to rely on.

I made this meme to just point out something I thought a lot about when scrolling through lemmy and that’s that voting isn’t enough because the best you can do is delay the inevitable. You can vote, but that won’t make a meaningful change.

Not my fault USA decided to use red for the conservatives, even though red as been the socialists’ color since we began.

If you don’t mind reading there is a lot of more specific questions and answers in this FAQ:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full

personally I generally favour blunt and to the point lol

Me too!

I think having these conversations in the comments can be more helpful than posting an alternative, because the people your meme speaks to can read on and hopefully broaden their views!

This should be the goal of this community. To share memes that invite people to discuss them, so the comments can make them think. The meme acts as a gateway to deeper leftist thought in the comments.

“polictics” was a typo. the spelling part was for whatever mistake you found in the title. I should have probably been clearer about that, but I thought the distinction was obvious.

I may have responded a bit too harshly. For me a downvote means “This post is completely trash and should not exist”, so to hear that a single typo is enough to invalidate it made me a bit defensive. You are absolutely correct to point it out but I think a downvote is a bit too harsh.

Also I know that’s probably not what downvotes mean to you but considering how they affect rankings I see them this way because downvote=less score=less people see=should not be seen.

That is a fair point. Although there is a point to be made that “the system” is democracy and overthrowing a government that doesn’t represent the population is a part of the system. But I agree that most people probably don’t think that way.

If you can think of any improvements feel free to make changes and upload your own version.