Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

  • Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
  • Use arguments rather than calling people names
  • Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

  • Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
  • Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
  • Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

  1. They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
  2. They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
  3. They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don’t have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

  • barsoap@lemm.ee
    2·
    1 year ago

    We also get a lot of shock at the fact that some of us think, in that situation, Ukraine would have to give independence and security guarantees to the Donbas & Crimea.

    So what you’re saying is that imperial powers should be able to send little green men into other countries, instigate astroturf civil wars, to break those countries apart, and then have those “independent” territories “democratically” join the imperialist aggressor nation.

    And that we should let them get away with it. That we’re supposed to tell Ukraine, the attacked party here, “No sorry the Russians are too good at weaselling and throwing rhetoric smoke grenades you’re out of luck we won’t help you”.

    Very leftist of you. Russia has been doing that shit for a near 700 years now.

    • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      41·
      1 year ago

      See, this is a good example of exactly what I’m talking about. I get that it can seem shocking to people, especially if they’re used to viewing a war as a simple good nation / bad nation dynamic, and that it’s emotional. But if you’re actually asking in good faith and just upset, I’ll try to explain - although I also think you should go back and reread my comment above.

      So what you’re saying is that imperial powers should be able to send little green men into other countries, instigate astroturf civil wars, to break those countries apart, and then have those “independent” territories “democratically” join the imperialist aggressor nation

      That bizarre generalisation is obviously not my position, as the rest of the post above makes clear.

      And that we should let them get away with it.

      I don’t even know what this means. Russia still will have lost thousands of people, been isolated by the NATO-West, and suffered big economic blows. Beyond that, the sad reality is that countries almost always “get away” with waging war. What’s the alternative, escalating it into a global conflict, nuclear war? How does that benefit the people of either side or anyone else?

      That we’re supposed to tell Ukraine, the attacked party here, “No sorry the Russians are too good at weaselling and throwing rhetoric smoke grenades you’re out of luck we won’t help you”.

      Again, I don’t really know what that means. It’s a matter of dealing practically with the situation as it actually exists. How could those regions possibly immediately reintegrate into Ukraine? The Ukrainian government was shelling the Donbas for more than half a decade before the war even started, not to mention the far-right militias. Do you think the rhetoric or hate for Russian speaking people in those regions has reduced during this war, that those regions and the Ukrainian nationalists are closer to peace? Without security guarantees it’ll be worse than before the war and very likely end in ethnic cleansing and the breaking of the Minsk agreements already demonstrates that the Ukrainian government can’t or won’t keep a lid on it.

      Since you framed it as we won’t help you I’m going to assume you’re also in a NATO country like I am. Again, I ask you, what should we tell them? That there can be no peace and they have to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian? That retribution and likely ethnic cleansing against those regions is fine actually because of some arbitrary notion of national fairness?

      Personally I’m not sure we should be telling them anything. It’s pretty clear that foreign meddling helped create this war and derail peace talks earlier in the conflict. Like I said before, ideally I want Russia and Ukraine sat at the negotiating table, both begrudgingly settling on a deal that’s best for everybody - meaning ordinary people, not the egos of nation states.

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
        3·
        1 year ago

        I don’t even know what this means. Russia still will have lost thousands of people, been isolated by the NATO-West, and suffered big economic blows. Beyond that, the sad reality is that countries almost always “get away” with waging war. What’s the alternative, escalating it into a global conflict, nuclear war? How does that benefit the people of either side or anyone else?

        How does caving in and giving the Russian Empire what it desires benefit people? It’s telling Russia “sure, go ahead, what you’re doing is fine, do it as often as you want”. “Pacifism is if I get to kick you and you don’t defend yourself”.

        The Ukrainian government was shelling the Donbas for more than half a decade before the war even started,

        The Ukrainian government was shelling Russian military positions after the invasion started, in 2014, with little green men and putting criminals into power as viceroys who then forced people into military service against their will. Yes, I’m from a NATO country. No, it’s not the US, I live two doors down from Ukraine so to speak. Just have to drive through Poland. I shared lecture hall benches with Ukrainians, had Ukrainian colleagues, now I have refugee Ukrainian neighbours. Ordinary people. Similar to Russians in many regards, more similar than other Slavic people I mean, but distinct in at least two important ways: a) They’re not fatalist and b) No empire-grade nationalism. In that regard they’re Poles it’s no accident that the starting lines of their anthems are so similar.

        Do you think the rhetoric or hate for Russian speaking people

        You know nothing about Ukraine. The Ukrainian army speaks Russian, FFS!

        Russian language and Russian culture is one thing, Russian state politics, imperialism, and kleptocratic mob rule another. Though there’s plenty of Ukrainian kids who now refuse to speak Russian even though it’s their native language and can you blame them.

        That there can be no peace and they have to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

        I would advocate for things like the US to stop pussyfooting about and deliver ATACMS to bring a quicker end to the war. Russia lost the war within the first couple of days only issue is Ukraine didn’t win yet either because the Russians have first to be convinced that they, indeed, lost the war. Differing expectations, lines on maps etc. and one big part of that is that with the US being indecisive as it is, and Russia thinking that the whole west is controlled by the US, Russia thinks they just have to hold out a bit longer and when the US loses interest then it’s going to order its vassals in Europe to stop supplying Ukraine.

        Of course, no such thing would happen. As an European I can tell you that the US can fuck off if it wants to we can deal with this stuff on our own but this “middle of the road” position is actively hurting Ukrainians as it’s giving a morale boost to the Kremlin.

        That retribution and likely ethnic cleansing against those regions is fine actually because of some arbitrary notion of national fairness?

        Where does this notion of “Ukraine is doing ethnic cleansing” coming from? Things like laws to promote Ukrainian as lingua franca of Ukraine while at the same time being in full compliance with the ECRML? On the flipside, Russia has been trying to eradicate the Ukrainian language and national identity since Catherine the Great. Of course, to the Russian nationalist any language but Russian being the lingua Franca in Ukraine is abhorrent. Why should they learn another language!.. they’re just as bad as Anglos in that regard.

        Personally I’m not sure we should be telling them anything. It’s pretty clear that foreign meddling helped create this war and derail peace talks earlier in the conflict. Like I said before, ideally I want Russia and Ukraine sat at the negotiating table, both begrudgingly settling on a deal that’s best for everybody - meaning ordinary people, not the egos of nation states.

        “Meddling” from the European side consists of saying “Sure, there’s a way to EU membership for you”. And Ukrainians wanted that, and Yanukovic betrayed them on that, send out hired thugs and Berkut (pretty much the definition of “bastar cop”) to deal with people who didn’t like him trying to turn the country into an autocracy. Then he fled to his masters in Russia and the little green men invasion started.

        Talk with Ukrainians. Ask them whether Russia can be negotiated with, and they’re going to say “yes – after they’ve been kicked out of the country, we can talk about reparations and lifting of sanctions”. The Ukrainian people, no matter their native tongue, are not willing to give an inch of territory. And why should they.

        There’s another option to kicking the Russians out, and that’s for the Russians to leave on their own accord, in one way or the other. Puting ordering a retreat is very unlikely as that would endanger regime stability. It happening otherwise is… well, the dynamics are very hard to predict but let’s just say that the Russian defence ministry doesn’t exactly have a stellar record when it comes to handling the payroll.

        • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          2·
          1 year ago

          How does caving in and giving the Russian Empire what it desires benefit people? It’s telling Russia “sure, go ahead, what you’re doing is fine, do it as often as you want”.

          Because it brings an end to the war. And an end to the civil war. And depending on what’s negotiated in exchange (NATO membership, EU membership etc), secures Ukraine against further escalation or Russian invasion.

          The Ukrainian government was shelling Russian military positions after the invasion started, in 2014

          I was clearly referring the current war, which Russia refers to as the SMO and western press as the ‘invasion of Ukraine’ or the ‘Ukraine war’. Saying the formal war actually started with Russian interference in the Donbas and Crimea opens up all sorts of other cans of worms - if it was an act of war, why wasn’t war declared, how could the SMO by an unprompted invasion if they were already at war, how was the 2014 coup not similar interference etc etc. I don’t think it’s a useful framing except to defend the attacks on the Donbas regions.

          The Ukrainian army speaks Russian, FFS!

          This is totally fair and it was extremely lazy and inaccurate framing on my part. Let’s not pretend that use of Russian (and other, minority languages) isn’t an issue though. There was the 2017 education law, which was widely condemned, and was at least improved upon. The 2019 Lviv ban on Russian language cultural products.The national 2019 Ukrainian language law which has been widely criticised. And since then there’s been the banning of Russian books and music. I’m glad you think “the Russian language and culture is one thing”, I do too, but clearly a significant portion of thr Ukrainian state has issues with it that go a lot further than just that Ukraine should speak more Ukrainian (which I don’t have a problem with for what it’s worth).

          Where does this notion of “Ukraine is doing ethnic cleansing” coming from? I didn’t claim that. But I think it’s a reasonable concern that without independence & security guarantees the Donbas and Crimea regions would be vulnerable to it. And the idea that it’s possible comes from a decade of far-right parties and paramilitaries engaged in everything from attacks of vigils and protests, to taking over council buildings and forcing law changes, to murders and waging a continued war on these regions, often with state support. There’s been increases in hate crime, increasing acceptance of Nazi imagery, and ever more mainstream unquestionably genocidal language

          “Meddling” from the European side consists of saying “Sure, there’s a way to EU membership for you”.

          That’s clearly not the extent of it though and doesn’t take into account the meddling of the US or the UK (which might as well be the US at this point). Theres about 20 years of US proxy orgs meddling, EU meddling (which sometimes conflicted with the US) for economic gain, the US support and funding for the 2014 coup, predatory IMF-loans, foreign capital’s insistence on eliminating worker protections and stripping the copper wire out of the walls of Ukraine, or UK/US pressure on the 2022 peace talks.

          I would advocate for things like the US to stop pussyfooting about and deliver ATACMS to bring a quicker end to the war. Russia lost the war within the first couple of days only issue is Ukraine didn’t win yet

          You see, here’s where we just fundamentally disagree. That framing might feel nice, it may even be the case on the basis of whatever your hopes that they accomplish are, but the war is still going on because the reality is that the war is still going on.

          You seem to think Russia being entirely driven out of Ukraine’s borders is inevitable and I don’t, probably the opposite in fact. And I don’t think that one more weapon system, just like all the others before it, is going to change the outcome. Especially when the US in particular, and therefore NATO more generally, seems to be signalling a reduction in enthusiasm and support. I live in Europe too and some European nations might continue there support, but there’s no denying that they’re more dependent on the US than they were before this conflict.

          Ultimately though, my point remains the same. This war overwhelmingly hurts the working class. Of Ukraine, of Russia, of separatist regions, of the countries fighting this war by proxy, of the countries being squeezed by related sanctions, and of the countries whose vital trade has been effected. As I made clear in my original post:

          I want both sides at the negotiating table rather than on the battlefield ideally, but if the conditions don’t allow the two sides to do that then I hope they’ll change as quickly as possible, because the longer this goes on the worse it gets all around.

          I’ll leave it there for now as this isn’t what this thread is about. I was asked to explain some of the thinking behind some Hexbear comments and I have. I clarified my opinion for you, because you obviously put a lot of effect into your response to me and I thought you deserved a reply.

          Whatever happens with federation and so on I hope you enjoy the rest of your time here on Lemmy.

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
            1·
            1 year ago

            Because it brings an end to the war. And an end to the civil war. And depending on what’s negotiated in exchange (NATO membership, EU membership etc), secures Ukraine against further escalation or Russian invasion.

            It would mean Taiwan is next. And various other small neigbours of medium-sized states in unstable regions of the world. “Hey nobody seems to care so let’s go for it”.

            Saying the formal war actually started with Russian interference in the Donbas and Crimea opens up all sorts of other cans of worms - if it was an act of war, why wasn’t war declared, how could the SMO by an unprompted invasion if they were already at war, how was the 2014 coup not similar interference etc etc. I don’t think it’s a useful framing except to defend the attacks on the Donbas regions.

            Which 2014 coup? Did you see any NATO troops on the ground? NATO weapons? There were a handful of politicians and diplomats from NATO states trying to negotiate compromises (and failing), does that constitute armed aid, now?

            Why wasn’t war declared back then? Russia still hasn’t declared war. And I tell you why: Because that’d be unpopular in Russia. It would mean universal conscription.

            That’s clearly not the extent of it though and doesn’t take into account the meddling of the US or the UK

            And even with all that neolib shit (which I didn’t care to mention as it’s not directly connected) Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. None of that stuff was covert or corrupt, btw.

            You seem to think Russia being entirely driven out of Ukraine’s borders is inevitable and I don’t, probably the opposite in fact. And I don’t think that one more weapon system, just like all the others before it, is going to change the outcome.

            One weapon system no, I’m singling out ATACMS not because they would give a completely new capability to Ukraine (they have long-range strike capabilities), but because the US is sitting on half a gazillion of those and Ukraine could really, really, use more of that kind of capability to strike into the Russian rear – hitting logistics, command posts, artillery, pretty much everything that NATO would hit from the air in a similar situation. It would make a real difference to the duration of the war because the defensive structures Russia built can’t be overcome while under artillery fire. Mine sweepers don’t move quickly they’re pretty much sitting ducks, bulldozers to flatten moats neither.

            Ukrainians are going to go on with or without ATACMS, gnawing away at that line until there’s a breakthrough. Their losses are quite small doing that, btw, precisely because unlike Russia they actually care about the lives of their soldiers.

            And this whole “counteroffensive has failed” talk is kinda – west-east propaganda? Ukrainian generals have said from the beginning, in crystal clear terms, that this is going to take ages because they don’t have enough materiel to do it quickly. The west was expecting more, and Russia played into that by declaring the offensive failed as soon as probing attacks began. Yeah they were probes of course they didn’t break through that’d be rather embarrassing for the Russian side.

            Ultimately though, my point remains the same. This war overwhelmingly hurts the working class. Of Ukraine, of Russia, of separatist regions, of the countries fighting this war by proxy, of the countries being squeezed by related sanctions, and of the countries whose vital trade has been effected. As I made clear in my original post:

            I want both sides at the negotiating table rather than on the battlefield ideally, but if the conditions don’t allow the two sides to do that then I hope they’ll change as quickly as possible, because the longer this goes on the worse it gets all around.

            …so you hope that Ukraine will be given ATACMS and whatever else it needs to bring Russia to a position where they have to negotiate. Alternatively, that Putin kicks the bucket and is replaced maybe not by someone nicer, but at least by someone sufficiently isolationists. But it could as well be a Z patriot tripling down on the conflict that’s why pining for regime change isn’t really a good idea, I’m quite sure the SBU could already have had Putin in the crosshairs if they thought it was a good idea: You need to destroy the myth, not the man. Destroy only the man and the myth only becomes stronger.