Some of successful implementations of Socialist policies is via Social Democracy, which is still a Capitalist country, but with a strong social safety net and a lot of regulations, and Democracy still exists (Eg: Norway). Then there’s Democratic Socialism, which seeks to establish Socialism via democratic means.
I believe that a socialized democracy is a best of both worlds approach. We need stronger safety nets for people. People shouldn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck and worry about if they are going to have a home if they lose their job. People shouldn’t have to worry about losing everything if they have to go to the hospital. Education should 100% be free - we should be investing in a smarter, more educated population. I believe that we’re seeing exactly what happens when we don’t properly invest in education.
Leaving capitalism even partially intact means there is room for it to claw back power from the people. The Nordic model is a temporary measure that is already being weakened in different areas. Not to mention countries like Norway and Sweden are able to keep their own wages, cost of living, etc reasonable by exploiting developing countries in the global south. Capitalism can’t be regulated into obedience, it’s an oppressive and coercive power structure that will always do what it can to survive unless.totally eradicated. Same for the state
I personally view Social Democracy as one of the stages you have to go through before achieving Socialism. Violent revolutions cause too much instability and is breeding ground for authoritarianism, and violence should be avoided as long as there is still a democratic system to achieve your goals. (Violence is a last resort, obviously if your country is a dictatorship, that might be unavoidable) Socialism is compatible with Democracy, and some might even argue that Socialist societies require Democracy. To prevent regression to Capitalism, we can write a new constitution that has Socialist ideals as an entrenched clause and such a country would also need to practice Defensive Democracy and ban political parties that are anti-egalitarian (basically like Germany’s Defensive Democracy, with with added Socialism). But it’s going to be a challenge to get it just right that it doesn’t regress into Capitalism, but also doesn’t become authoritarian. The biggest challenge is to convince a majority of the people to support Socialism, because forcing a country to become Socialist isn’t going to work if most people are against it. And because of the past failed attempts at Socialist/Communist ideologies and the totalitarianism that resulted from those attempts, it’s going to be difficult to convince people to try it again, because people would fear that this time, it would also result in totalitarianism again.
The ultimate goal of socialism, in any form it may take, is to democratize every aspect of collective society. Be it the work place, government, industry, schooling, etc. Socialism is fundamentally against one person having unjust power and influence over others. I’d say that’s the major thread that ties all of the different socialist ideologies together.
Revolution and revolutionary action takes many forms and is often a long process. The violent overthrowing of the powers that be that is often associated with revolution nowadays but we ignore the less dramatic and showy ways it operates before that. Not to say violence isn’t going to be necessary. For example, the state has power because of its monopoly on violence. The state says who they use their force against and for what reasons, regardless of the wishes or consent of their citizens. Radical democracy inherently involves taking the power of violence, oppression and coercion from the state.
In the same way the capitalist will not readily give up their wealth because we told them to pay their fair share, a state will not give up it’s monopoly on violence because we told them we don’t want them to kill us any more.
As an anarchist, many of us believe in a balance of means and ends. Which is what I feel you’re alluding to moreso than the use of political violence. We think that the situation you’re in limits the means available to you, and therefore the ends you can achieve. Your means MUST justify your ends. And if you’re looking for a specific end (i.e. the abolition of capitalism and the state) you need to work to provide the correct means to meet it. Anarchists have many ideas on how to avoid the pitfalls and are doing work every day to see that through.
If you’re interested, I’d be happy to provide some reading/listening material on the subject. Many people.much more eloquent than myself have dedicated their lives to addressing the very things you’re worried about and I wouldn’t want to misrepresent.them as I’m still learning the ins and outs myself.
Do you know what another term of anarcho communism is? Libertarian socialism. Please tell me how a LIBERTARIAN ideology is about destroying individual rights
My problem with Demsoc is that it doesn’t work in 3rd world countries to really address the issues, only to improve on them a little bit (see south america).
I think it only really works that well in europe because of imperialism.
I’d bet a fair amount of money that you have no idea what actual hard work looks like, and I find it insane that you’d rather countries just stay poor forever than allow people to work to change their lives.
I didn’t actually say that. You have no idea how capitalism operates in the third world it seems.
Being exploited collectively for our actual riches improves no one’s lives. Come here and visit my country for a reality check.
I wonder why 3rd world countries that go Socialist grow and develop so fast. It is almost like all that money is being funneled back to the US and Europe through corporations, and thats not good for anyone.
Here’s how capitalism actually works in the third world, as someone who has actually worked in a field where I traveled to the third world for business
1: companies invest in local communities that have little inside economic opportunity
2: workers there are paid well above what others are, because the local currency has a shitty exchange rate
3: those people then become locally wealthy and contribute to the growth of businesses, institutions, and infrastructure that improves the nation’s economy as a whole
You see someone getting paid $10.00/day and I see someone making 5x what their neighbors make, because a US dollar is worth 20x (or more) their currency.
Some of successful implementations of Socialist policies is via Social Democracy, which is still a Capitalist country, but with a strong social safety net and a lot of regulations, and Democracy still exists (Eg: Norway). Then there’s Democratic Socialism, which seeks to establish Socialism via democratic means.
I believe that a socialized democracy is a best of both worlds approach. We need stronger safety nets for people. People shouldn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck and worry about if they are going to have a home if they lose their job. People shouldn’t have to worry about losing everything if they have to go to the hospital. Education should 100% be free - we should be investing in a smarter, more educated population. I believe that we’re seeing exactly what happens when we don’t properly invest in education.
Leaving capitalism even partially intact means there is room for it to claw back power from the people. The Nordic model is a temporary measure that is already being weakened in different areas. Not to mention countries like Norway and Sweden are able to keep their own wages, cost of living, etc reasonable by exploiting developing countries in the global south. Capitalism can’t be regulated into obedience, it’s an oppressive and coercive power structure that will always do what it can to survive unless.totally eradicated. Same for the state
I personally view Social Democracy as one of the stages you have to go through before achieving Socialism. Violent revolutions cause too much instability and is breeding ground for authoritarianism, and violence should be avoided as long as there is still a democratic system to achieve your goals. (Violence is a last resort, obviously if your country is a dictatorship, that might be unavoidable) Socialism is compatible with Democracy, and some might even argue that Socialist societies require Democracy. To prevent regression to Capitalism, we can write a new constitution that has Socialist ideals as an entrenched clause and such a country would also need to practice Defensive Democracy and ban political parties that are anti-egalitarian (basically like Germany’s Defensive Democracy, with with added Socialism). But it’s going to be a challenge to get it just right that it doesn’t regress into Capitalism, but also doesn’t become authoritarian. The biggest challenge is to convince a majority of the people to support Socialism, because forcing a country to become Socialist isn’t going to work if most people are against it. And because of the past failed attempts at Socialist/Communist ideologies and the totalitarianism that resulted from those attempts, it’s going to be difficult to convince people to try it again, because people would fear that this time, it would also result in totalitarianism again.
The ultimate goal of socialism, in any form it may take, is to democratize every aspect of collective society. Be it the work place, government, industry, schooling, etc. Socialism is fundamentally against one person having unjust power and influence over others. I’d say that’s the major thread that ties all of the different socialist ideologies together.
Revolution and revolutionary action takes many forms and is often a long process. The violent overthrowing of the powers that be that is often associated with revolution nowadays but we ignore the less dramatic and showy ways it operates before that. Not to say violence isn’t going to be necessary. For example, the state has power because of its monopoly on violence. The state says who they use their force against and for what reasons, regardless of the wishes or consent of their citizens. Radical democracy inherently involves taking the power of violence, oppression and coercion from the state.
In the same way the capitalist will not readily give up their wealth because we told them to pay their fair share, a state will not give up it’s monopoly on violence because we told them we don’t want them to kill us any more.
As an anarchist, many of us believe in a balance of means and ends. Which is what I feel you’re alluding to moreso than the use of political violence. We think that the situation you’re in limits the means available to you, and therefore the ends you can achieve. Your means MUST justify your ends. And if you’re looking for a specific end (i.e. the abolition of capitalism and the state) you need to work to provide the correct means to meet it. Anarchists have many ideas on how to avoid the pitfalls and are doing work every day to see that through.
If you’re interested, I’d be happy to provide some reading/listening material on the subject. Many people.much more eloquent than myself have dedicated their lives to addressing the very things you’re worried about and I wouldn’t want to misrepresent.them as I’m still learning the ins and outs myself.
The ultimate goal of socialism is to destroy rights and freedoms of an individual.
Do you know what another term of anarcho communism is? Libertarian socialism. Please tell me how a LIBERTARIAN ideology is about destroying individual rights
Do you even know what LIBERTARIAN means?
If you take away everyone’s freedom to murder at will, are you restricting or promoting freedom?
How’s that related?
The only oppressive power structure is socialism.
I know you’re just being an inflammatory dick but please, enlighten me how an ideology built around the abolition of oppression is oppressive?
Abolition of what, sorry?
My problem with Demsoc is that it doesn’t work in 3rd world countries to really address the issues, only to improve on them a little bit (see south america).
I think it only really works that well in europe because of imperialism.
What works really well in developing nations is capitalism (i.e. outside investment).
You never been to a developing nation have you?
Yes, I absolutely have.
I doubt so. You sound like someone who would fold under the conditions of the working class in most of these “capitalist utopia” sweatshops.
I’d bet a fair amount of money that you have no idea what actual hard work looks like, and I find it insane that you’d rather countries just stay poor forever than allow people to work to change their lives.
I didn’t actually say that. You have no idea how capitalism operates in the third world it seems.
Being exploited collectively for our actual riches improves no one’s lives. Come here and visit my country for a reality check.
I wonder why 3rd world countries that go Socialist grow and develop so fast. It is almost like all that money is being funneled back to the US and Europe through corporations, and thats not good for anyone.
Here’s how capitalism actually works in the third world, as someone who has actually worked in a field where I traveled to the third world for business
1: companies invest in local communities that have little inside economic opportunity
2: workers there are paid well above what others are, because the local currency has a shitty exchange rate
3: those people then become locally wealthy and contribute to the growth of businesses, institutions, and infrastructure that improves the nation’s economy as a whole
You see someone getting paid $10.00/day and I see someone making 5x what their neighbors make, because a US dollar is worth 20x (or more) their currency.