- cross-posted to:
- green@lemmy.ml
- europe@lemmy.ml
- solarpunktravel@slrpnk.net
- cross-posted to:
- green@lemmy.ml
- europe@lemmy.ml
- solarpunktravel@slrpnk.net
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No VAT or fuel tax is madness
I knew about the lack of a kerosene tax for flights but no VAT on international flights is just downright nuts to me.
Bread, Tampons, and books are more highly taxed than (most international) flights. Talk about distorted markets.
Why is this still a thing… this should be the top issue on all political agendas
Now I don’t agree with it (in fact, I am strongly opposed to the tax exemption), but the reasoning is that this way you create an ‘even playing field’ for aviators all across the globe. In other words: it’s doesn’t become more attractive to tank in Arab Gulf states, making their airlines out-compete European airlines.
That’s always the excuse they make. But it’s highly flawed. You can tax the planes that land in your country. They can’t evade landing in your country, and they don’t get to decide where people want to go.
Either they are complete hypocrites or they are the most useless idiots when it comes to finding solutions.
I would add a third option there: the aviation lobby is too strong, sufficiently suppressing the urge to find solutions. ;)
I think the issue is solvable for continental flights, but it becomes really difficult for international flights. At least not unless you get others to also support it, for which many sadly wont have any incentive.
Want to tax the whole distance rather than just the portion flown within the airspace you control (which will be minimized as much as possible)? Airlines will split up long distance flights by utilizing airport hubs just outside your jurisdiction. Giving those a major advantage and moving a substantial business away.
Combat this by taxing on an airline level? Airlines will just split into two entities, one serving europe and the other the rest of the world. Again leading to a loss for your economy. And at least for long international distances there is no alternative to flying.
Sweden just taxes you upon landing. Sure some airlines left and some only fly short connect flights. But those are not easy fixes especially if all of EU was doing this.
I’ve heard this reason being mentioned, but I’m not really convinced by it. If this is of concern, you can tax the combustion of fuel on flights going in or out of the country, instead of taxing the sale of the fuel.
You mean a CO^2 ^tax? Yes please!
But this could be said about every industry, right? Oh, if we would be not be taxed, we would be more competitive worldwide.
Indeed, but aviation is slightly more mobile than say steel production. It’s a bad excuse nonetheless, if you ask me!
It’s really not. It’s the most immobile industry there is. They literally have to land in the places where people want to go to, they can’t just produce their “goods” anywhere and ship them.
It’s not like the plane has much of an option where to tank. Planes don’t tank more than needed for any flight. I struggle to comprehend this point
Well I definitely see Ryanair making detours to, say, Algiers to tank cheaply.
Planes don’t tank more than needed for any flight.
That is just an objectivly wrong statement.
Fueling doesn’t happend instandly and the whole process (inluding new fuel calculations, calling the Fuel-Crew, driving up and attaching/detatching the tanker, signing off paperwork, etc) can take up to an hour, without a single drop of fuel being filled into the tanks.
Planes often fly multiple short hops, well below they maximum possible range (e.g. between the Hawaiian Islands). If the pilots calculate, that they can stay below there landing weight, then they might opt to take fuel for multiple flights. Burning a few hundred kilos more fuel costs less than having a full crew twiddling there thumbs & letting ground personal run around for an hour.
Introduce tariffs on kerosene remaining in landing planes and used during the flight. Problem solved.
I wouldn’t say madness. But it is certainly very unfair to the rail industry. They should both be exempt or neither.
I know a lot of people are big fans of trains, but I’m not taking a train from Madrid to Copenhagen for business. It’s not gonna happen. Madrid->Paris maybe. They’re opening a new line that’ll cover the distance in 5 hours.
But within countries trains are absolutely the way to go. At least here in Spain Even if you are on the train longer than the plane, there is no security-state bullshit to deal with at the stations and the experience is much nicer.
And you don’t have to show up to the train station that long before your scheduled departure compared to flights. Train stations are also centrally located for most people compared to airports. My thinking has been that if it’s around 5-7 hrs by train, the flight will be faster but the time you spend waiting for the flight makes the time you spend pretty much equal out.
I agree! The time it takes to go from my home to the airport, then going through check in, security check, etc, is around the same as just doing the whole thing by train. And I can take a longer nap on the train, always a plus.
Cries in German’s Deutsche Bahn.
I take the long distance train a lot, over 20 times a year a lot. These are informed tears.
Alright from where to where is this train you so frequently take?
The ICEs between NRW and BaWü: Stuttgart-Dortmund, Mannheim-Köln, sometimes but less often Karlsruhe-Köln. Then the occasional trips for pleasure from Stuttgart to Berlin or München.
Lol Im on a train in Germany rn. Its packed full and delayed 20 minutes. Thats nothing new here. Its more common to have delays and why to packed trains here
Oh, excuse me. I thought you were being sarcastic! I apologize. I’m oo used to online political fights. 😅
Yeah, the Deutsche Bahn was half privatized and because they had to chase profits, the Deutsche Bahn AG started investing in DB Schenker (a logistics outfit) along with many-a foreign companies, instead of maintaining and building more railways, as well as buying new wagons.
Now we have the fucked up situation where the Deutsche Bahn manages the railway, so other train companies (Thalys, Flixtrain, TGV, etc) have to rent the (publically financed) rails, while being treated like stepchildren in such situations when a Deutsche Bahn trains (that are not well maintained) needs a platform for longer than planned because of some emergency (but there’s an emergency every day). And it’s not like these trains could use other routes, because the routes aren’t maintained. The Deutsche Bahn is practically a monopoly as a company, while enjoying state funding. The last slap in the face was when the Swiss state train company (SBB) bans German trains from entering Switzerland, because they always cause delays on the Swiss side. Trivia: a train counts as late after a 3-minute delay in Switzerland, 6-minute in Germany. SO HOW EMBARASSING IS THIS?? The Swiss told us that we’re too friggin unpünktlicht!!
The Deutsche Bahn now (with some political pressure, but not too much) announced they’re going to build more routes and buy more trains, and all in all, WE WILL FINALLY BE ON TIME… in 2070. 2070!!! I’m not going to still be working in 2070!
This turned into a rant, sorry. TL;DR, the Deutsche Bahn is in a sad, sad state.
Hahaha. Don’t worry I appreciate it. That is very funny about Switzerland!
Here in Spain they are finally opening high-speed rail to some northern cities along the Atlantic coast. However, because the line had to cross the Cantabrian Mountains, they needed to construct a tunnel, one of thr largest in the world in fact. This was supposed to be finished in 2002, but because this is Spain it is finally opening 21 years later in 2023 😂
In Madrid our commuter trains are horrible. But that’s just because of the current conservative government. They cut back on the number of trains per hour and then claim public transport doesn’t work and that it needs to be privatized. Horrible.
Man Ich hoffe ma die machen was for 2070, aber alles ist ja mit den verspätet also wahrscheinlich passiert erst was 2200…
Yes. No one else can really compete with DB on German rail because DB discriminates. This is extremely embarrassing considering that many other EU countries like Italy, France, and Spain does not have this problem. DB Netz need to be properly split from DB. The current situation is super shit.
Because fuel and oil are still not CO² taxed as they should.
I gather aviation fuel isn’t taxed at all
Airline companies are basically organized crime.
The best and most elegant solution.
The article presents some good suggestions. It’s pretty bonkers that taking the train across borders in Europe is more difficult and expensive than a plane
the [air transport] industry’s importance to the economy and tourism sector
That won’t age well
Because some EU states let trains directly compete with flights regionally or between bordering states
Italy does this and the train won. It’s a good example of how the train can win.
They often aren’t. But where I live there is no train. The closest train station is a 4 hour bus ride from my town and it’s only connected to the neighbouring country’s rail network.
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Not quite. Trains are more flexible and forgiving schedule-wise. You miss one, you take the next. No crazy airport security either. Train stations are often in city centers, connected to cheap public transport and walkable. More room and less strict.
We need more comfortable and cheaper trains though.
Well they are saying there is no taxes on planes.
Planes need taxes and externalities costs included also, to get a true price.
Yes trains use more infrastructure but that is largely a fixed cost. I wonder what the marginal cost of running a train on a near full capacity line is verse a plane.
the marginal cost of running a train on a near full capacity line is verse a plane
After a certain threshold train is much cheaper than plane, but that’s only true for very busy routes. And it comes with less flexibility than a plane that can serve point-to-point basically every destination.
Trains are cool, but we should also look for a way (propfan engines, less emitting fuel, improvements in fuselage ecc.) to make aviation more sustainable because it’s crazy to think it will go away anytime soon
But a plane can’t serve any destination point to point. There has to be massive infrastructure on both ends in the form of a gigantic airport, which is completely useless for anything but long trips.
If countries stopped giving away free airports and taxfree fuel and stopped giving away free airport security etc, and stopped externalizing all the other costs, you’d see airline tickets raise an order of magnitude in cost.
in the form of a gigantic airport
Turboprops can land on grass fields… I don’t know where you live but there are thousands of very small airports with just one airstrip and a small building, if the passenger flow is not very big. Exactly as there are enormous but also small train stations.
The remaining infrastructure is flight control, which is a fixed cost indipendently by where you are 'cause for obvious reasons it needs to cover the entire country anyway. And indeed the advantages of a planes is that it has very little fixed cost, so it’s way easier to reduce/increase or repurpose routes at need.
The second part is, at least partly, a fallacy. If countries stopped subsidizing all cars you would see less cars but also many people unable to satisfy their transportation needs. If countries stopped to subsidized food prices you would see food waste plummetting… But also people being able to afford less food.
If you can train is less than say 6 hours. Trains are hands down better.
They are much more reliably on time.
The station is usually much closer than to the ultimate destination than an airport.
There’s little or no waiting in queues or what not, in a lot places you can roll up the platform 10-20 mins before departure.
The seats are better for pretty much every class of ticket. sans a standing ticket but Planes don’t have those.
Once you factor getting to and from the airport, messing about with check in, security, and boarding at around 6 hours a train is better than a 2 hour flight.
they are much more reliably on time.
Cries in german.
Oh man, I take an ICE roundtrip over twenty times a year. These days I have to plan a buffer of 2 hours between ETA and my Termin. These are tears well informed by experience.
Fuck Dusseldorf airport. Fuck Frankfurt airport. Fuck them right in the ass. But also fuck validating your train ticket at the other end of the platform seconds before getting on the train.
Validating tickets thankfully isn’t a problem any more. Most people have the Deutschlandticket now, so you can just jump into any regional train or bus without any problems. ICE and IC tickets also don’t need to be validated and are digital more often than not.
I’m an American and went to Cologne a few years back for Carnival. Flew into Frankfurt Airport, the train was right there and I was at my destination in about an hour traveling along a scenic river. Absolutely amazing!
My experience with Frankfurt has been that it’s always under construction and I have to be diverted around said construction to get to my connecting flight.
Just add a 20 minute transfer time and hope for the best
Well, your username is well chosen, most of your points are epic fails.
Some people care about climate change and CO2 consumption.
Cuz trains suck?
In that case shouldn’t the trains be cheaper?
Well no. They’re inefficient. Think of the maintence, its ridiculous, even with modern electric trains.
Airplanes, of course, require no maintenance at all.
They do, but trains are surprisingly bad.
Planes get all sorts of checks done based on hours of flight and we’re talking various levels starting at every-50h for certain things and going all the way to full engine overhauls every few tens of thousands of hours of flight (actual value depends on the engine).
Even shitty-shit amateur prop planes are incredibly maintenance intensive and it’s worse for commercial aviation.
The amount of maintenance done for trains is nowhere comparable to that and the reason is pretty obvious: a mechanical or structural failure in a plane in use has a very high likelihood of killing everybody in it, whilst for a train, it’s only some kind of failures in some subsystems in highspeed trains that might cause accidents with that many dead.
“Assertive laughable ignorance” doesn’t even begin to describe the quality of your posts on this subject.
As to be expected from someone whose handle is literally “Throwaway”
“inefficient”, yet consume much less energy than planes for the same route. You seem to be using a very odd definition of efficiency!
The reason planes are cheaper is governments subsidize them. Don’t collect proper taxes on fuel and sales taxes. Trains don’t get the same treatment. Trains are actually more effecient, physics is a real thing. It takes a ton more fuel to keep a plane in the air. The only way it’s less efficient is if you are comparing a near empty train to a full plain.
