I appreciate unions, but I often feel like this website gets out of touch with them.
Many jobs simply do not lend themselves to having a union. They’re too niche, the employees are scattered around, there’s no willing union representation, etc. “These guys should just join a Union!! And if they have to - by golly, form one themselves!” Always comes off to me like such a reductive take on how complex a lot of working/employment systems are, and where unions can and cannot benefit.
It often pushes up on just being idealogical grandstanding rather than legitimately listening and understanding case by case problems in employment
If anybody wants help navigating this send me a PM. We can setup an email chain, or encrypted comms, or whatever you need.
If you’re a Pinkerton/Securitas/Strike Breaker feel free to contact me as well, I’m always happy to direct scabs to where they can happily fuck themselves.
I remember trying to do this when I still worked at jimmy John’s, cause I’m not exactly a charismatic individual and I have no leadership skills to form a union… 🥲 They never replied to my email
I just listened to the BtB: How Conservatism Won today. He breaks it all down and shows us how we got to where we are. Laid out in a nice chronological, easy to digest order connecting dot to dot; it’s very enlightening.
I highly recommend it to everyone interested in what’s happening in America right now. Robert Evans is a gem, the definition of an actual journalist, and the kind of people The Left in America needs.
Thank you for the reminder about BtB. I need to listen to those instead of random YouTube hobby stuff.
I have noticed YouTube has started to steer me into right wing spaces. I use it to watch fix-it guides, guitar videos, and video game reviews. Somehow the video two away is some Red Pill, incel, right wing bullshit. I bet they are paying a pretty penny to steer people their way.
The founder of the Pinkertons barely cheated death so many times that it all but proves time travel exists, and it’s being used in the same way that every other groundbreaking technology is: to make the rich richer.
I never understood how this was supposed to work. My job isn’t a “union shop” so I have to quit? There’s no way in hell this factory in Trumpville NY is going to get behind the idea of unionizing.
That’s cause you’re not going going form an “union”. You are going to form a “The True Patriots” or “The Fighters of Freedom” or “Drain the Swamp: Company Edition” or whatever conservative jargon that gets buy in.
It’s a weird circumstance that this organization does everything an union does.
I like this idea! “Hey guys sign here so we can create the Anti-Woke Group! We just have to have meetings that discuss business and nothing woke, that’s how we win against woke!”
“Don’t you all think it’s woke that we can’t get insurance? or a pension? I don’t know about you but I think it’s pretty DEI that the boss is making all this money and we’re down here busting our balls doing all work. Sounds like me the boss is living off the welfare that our labor provides.”
I didn’t want to be too specific, just to say everyone here is super conservative so I’m assuming my only option if I wanted to be part of a union that could do anything for me would be to leave this job for one where the workers are on board with having a union.
I’m completely ignorant to the process though which was why I asked.
Google AFL/CIO and your local town. Reach out to them with what your industry is, and anyone who is also interested in a union. They’ll get back to you with either materials or a local rep that can guide you through the process. If after you’ve emailed you get a response feel free to reach out to me here and I can show you how to take the next steps, it’s usually a communication network for your co workers. I can help out with some pointers if you like, after you get an email chain going.
No, in my understanding you basically convince as many co-workers as possible to join the union together. Ideally the majority, but essentially you just need enough that they can’t fire and replace you all overnight… Which means, it has to be enough that the rest of the staff can’t cover for the union members for a few weeks or months without drastically slowing things down
You could probably reach out to a relevant union rep to get more info- there’re legal processes to help with this, like protected voting if enough people want to join a union or not, that probably varies by where you live and I only know the basics
First you email them and let then know your industry, where your work is located and ask them if there are any local reps. Don’t pay dues until you contact the local rep.
Do you think it’s impossible that the IWW does not have representatives in every part of the country…? I live in an area where there aren’t most major organizations. I had to start my own DSA chapter.
Go on. You said you’d walk me through the process. They have no reps here. What do I do now?
There is a balance that needs to be struck. Back when we were peak union in the UK in the 70s their leaders would hold the country to randsom. They’d tell politicians that they want them gone and would instigate bi-weekly blackouts until they got what they wanted. Every household was well stocked with candles and wood logs due to the number of orchestrated blackouts.
The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction in recent years. Now professions with strong unions like train drivers are among the only people who have had their wages keep up with inflation over the past 10 years.
Some jobs don’t lend themselves to having unions but they are the minority. Even software developers probably should have unions these days - if people don’t want to be part of one they can always work as a contractor instead.
I’d agree with this generally. Again, my issue largely have this idea of unions as being this magical, fantasy like interpretation of collective bargaining that magically and suddenly solved almost all employment related issues.
I’ve been in several unions. Some were very good. Others I feel were genuinely bad to operations and employees. The vast majority of them simply didn’t really do anything
Unions are great in theory! But the mob of already well paid computer scientists who rush up on Lemmy and act like they’re this magical solution other workers simply didn’t think of is obnoxious.
Yeah would agree with that assessment. Every human organization is liable to dysfunction/corruption if run badly and organized labour is not immune to this.
My wife is a data analyst for what’s essentially a tech firm, she’s unionized and in her particular circumstances it’s amazing. Fully remote, 3 raises last year LoL, great benefits etc etc. I work with unions and many are not nearly as good for their members as others.
There’s a concept where I’m from of an employee committee, which is just an assembly of the workers in a particular workplace and a valid actor in collective bargaining. I’ve been a part of one to negotiate specific policies.
Still a collective bargaining agent, though. Whether or not it fits the US’s specific legal categorization of a union, engaging in collective negotiations with employers in an organized manner is fairly universally applicable and positive. “Unions just don’t fit this kind of work” sounds a heck of a lot like an excuse to avoid having collective bargaining altogether.
I’m not, I’m saying an individual is indulging themselves by simply hand-waiving any employment related problem as “just start collective bargaining and your problems are solved!!!”
Well, if they’re handwaving and not organizing, then yeah. If they’re actually organizing, then no.
In almost all circumstances, being organized for bargaining is going to be better than not being organized for bargaining. That holds whether you’re hand-waving your problems before getting organized or not.
…. You understand that those are two different people, right? The person hand-waving how easy starting a union is and how easily beneficial it can be is not the same person as the worker who has to do the thing lol
Ah, gotcha. Well, my point stands. Unless your hypothetical hand-waver is unemployed or already in an union, I suppose.
I’m not American, so I don’t know how hard it is to unionize in the US. Over here there are massive unions with country-wide presence that typically can set up where needed, as well as segment-specific unions. I’m pretty sure you can either start a new one with a handful of people or just… you know, call a preexisting one and sign up. I’ve heard about companies in the US having way more restrictive steps, having to agree company-wide to unionize and stuff like that. That’s… not how we do it.
It’s very hard here, especially depending on your circumstances - and even when a union is formed they’re often unable to really… get any meaningful progress. Depending on your particular employment, it’s effectively impossible - and it gets harder the poorer you are.
It’s why it’s sometimes frustrating to hear Americans tell other Americans (often less well off than they are) to “just form a Union!”. The leftist version of “pull yourself up by the bootstraps”
You can organize, unionized or not, and it seems like organization is a gateway to unionization, regardless of how hard that may be. And it is a fact that organization and collective bargaining will help and is a key path to improvements, so even if it’s hard, it’s still the way to go.
And hey, ultimately the goal is to keep electing pro-unionization leaders so it becomes easier to it’s more feasible. But you don’t stop doing it or recommending it just because it’s harder there.
Okay, so a bunch of people organize and then the boss fires all of them for doing so. That’s not exactly a perfect system leading towards better working conditions
You have to remember that these are the same people who romanticize and call for general strikes without any consideration for what it does to families. Not to mention it doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that most general strikes in history have failed miserably. The reality is that successful union activity is generally small, difficult, and has to be sustained for years.
Absolutely. It’s really good to hear your perspective on the matter, because yeah - that shit is brutal and SAG-AFTRA was a ‘good outcome’. Many - especially those without the benefit of millions and millions of dollars, celebrity backers, and mass public support, do not have good outcomes.
If you’re interested in this kind of thing, “Germinal” by Zola is what I find to be the best depiction of a real strike. Because it has genuinely good intentions, but it’s also fucking terrible, and essentially everyone involved ends up worse for wear after it’s done.
Precisely so. It can be grating to see Lemmy, a site full almost exclusively of well-paid computer programmers - preach “just unionize!” With the same oily lips as conservatives who tell millions to “just pull yourself up by the bootstraps!”.
In both cases it’s “talking down” to the end worker, pitching an ‘easy’, one sentence solution to all of their ills without any consideration for the vast amount of effort required in reality.
I appreciate unions, but I often feel like this website gets out of touch with them.
Many jobs simply do not lend themselves to having a union. They’re too niche, the employees are scattered around, there’s no willing union representation, etc. “These guys should just join a Union!! And if they have to - by golly, form one themselves!” Always comes off to me like such a reductive take on how complex a lot of working/employment systems are, and where unions can and cannot benefit.
It often pushes up on just being idealogical grandstanding rather than legitimately listening and understanding case by case problems in employment
That’s why the IWW was formed, they’ll literally build you a union.
https://www.iww.org/membership/
If anybody wants help navigating this send me a PM. We can setup an email chain, or encrypted comms, or whatever you need.
If you’re a Pinkerton/Securitas/Strike Breaker feel free to contact me as well, I’m always happy to direct scabs to where they can happily fuck themselves.
I remember trying to do this when I still worked at jimmy John’s, cause I’m not exactly a charismatic individual and I have no leadership skills to form a union… 🥲 They never replied to my email
I cannot imagine being a Pinkerton, an organization that has never been on the right side of history.
It does answer that question of how the Supervillains get their henchmen. Someone will always sign up to be a part of an organization like that.
Behind the bastards just did a really good episode on them.
I just listened to the BtB: How Conservatism Won today. He breaks it all down and shows us how we got to where we are. Laid out in a nice chronological, easy to digest order connecting dot to dot; it’s very enlightening.
I highly recommend it to everyone interested in what’s happening in America right now. Robert Evans is a gem, the definition of an actual journalist, and the kind of people The Left in America needs.
Thank you for the reminder about BtB. I need to listen to those instead of random YouTube hobby stuff.
I have noticed YouTube has started to steer me into right wing spaces. I use it to watch fix-it guides, guitar videos, and video game reviews. Somehow the video two away is some Red Pill, incel, right wing bullshit. I bet they are paying a pretty penny to steer people their way.
The founder of the Pinkertons barely cheated death so many times that it all but proves time travel exists, and it’s being used in the same way that every other groundbreaking technology is: to make the rich richer.
I never understood how this was supposed to work. My job isn’t a “union shop” so I have to quit? There’s no way in hell this factory in Trumpville NY is going to get behind the idea of unionizing.
That’s cause you’re not going going form an “union”. You are going to form a “The True Patriots” or “The Fighters of Freedom” or “Drain the Swamp: Company Edition” or whatever conservative jargon that gets buy in.
It’s a weird circumstance that this organization does everything an union does.
I like this idea! “Hey guys sign here so we can create the Anti-Woke Group! We just have to have meetings that discuss business and nothing woke, that’s how we win against woke!”
“Don’t you all think it’s woke that we can’t get insurance? or a pension? I don’t know about you but I think it’s pretty DEI that the boss is making all this money and we’re down here busting our balls doing all work. Sounds like me the boss is living off the welfare that our labor provides.”
What? Why would you quit? Where is Trumpville?
I didn’t want to be too specific, just to say everyone here is super conservative so I’m assuming my only option if I wanted to be part of a union that could do anything for me would be to leave this job for one where the workers are on board with having a union.
I’m completely ignorant to the process though which was why I asked.
Google AFL/CIO and your local town. Reach out to them with what your industry is, and anyone who is also interested in a union. They’ll get back to you with either materials or a local rep that can guide you through the process. If after you’ve emailed you get a response feel free to reach out to me here and I can show you how to take the next steps, it’s usually a communication network for your co workers. I can help out with some pointers if you like, after you get an email chain going.
No, in my understanding you basically convince as many co-workers as possible to join the union together. Ideally the majority, but essentially you just need enough that they can’t fire and replace you all overnight… Which means, it has to be enough that the rest of the staff can’t cover for the union members for a few weeks or months without drastically slowing things down
You could probably reach out to a relevant union rep to get more info- there’re legal processes to help with this, like protected voting if enough people want to join a union or not, that probably varies by where you live and I only know the basics
Alright. Help me navigate it. I sign up for them and then what? Their website looks more like it’s for networking, but I give them $22 and now what?
First you email them and let then know your industry, where your work is located and ask them if there are any local reps. Don’t pay dues until you contact the local rep.
They said there wernt any reps nearby. I don’t live in a major metro area. What now?
Why don’t I believe you?
Do you think it’s impossible that the IWW does not have representatives in every part of the country…? I live in an area where there aren’t most major organizations. I had to start my own DSA chapter.
Go on. You said you’d walk me through the process. They have no reps here. What do I do now?
You haven’t contacted them yet. Do you need me to email them for you and cc you?
Dunkirk, New York. You can email them yourself to see if they have a rep here. I’ll save you some time - they don’t. What now?
You’re dodging the question in hopes of restarting the whole process. They don’t have a rep in my area. What now?
There is a balance that needs to be struck. Back when we were peak union in the UK in the 70s their leaders would hold the country to randsom. They’d tell politicians that they want them gone and would instigate bi-weekly blackouts until they got what they wanted. Every household was well stocked with candles and wood logs due to the number of orchestrated blackouts.
The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction in recent years. Now professions with strong unions like train drivers are among the only people who have had their wages keep up with inflation over the past 10 years.
Some jobs don’t lend themselves to having unions but they are the minority. Even software developers probably should have unions these days - if people don’t want to be part of one they can always work as a contractor instead.
I’d agree with this generally. Again, my issue largely have this idea of unions as being this magical, fantasy like interpretation of collective bargaining that magically and suddenly solved almost all employment related issues.
I’ve been in several unions. Some were very good. Others I feel were genuinely bad to operations and employees. The vast majority of them simply didn’t really do anything
Unions are great in theory! But the mob of already well paid computer scientists who rush up on Lemmy and act like they’re this magical solution other workers simply didn’t think of is obnoxious.
Yeah would agree with that assessment. Every human organization is liable to dysfunction/corruption if run badly and organized labour is not immune to this.
My wife is a data analyst for what’s essentially a tech firm, she’s unionized and in her particular circumstances it’s amazing. Fully remote, 3 raises last year LoL, great benefits etc etc. I work with unions and many are not nearly as good for their members as others.
There’s a concept where I’m from of an employee committee, which is just an assembly of the workers in a particular workplace and a valid actor in collective bargaining. I’ve been a part of one to negotiate specific policies.
Still a collective bargaining agent, though. Whether or not it fits the US’s specific legal categorization of a union, engaging in collective negotiations with employers in an organized manner is fairly universally applicable and positive. “Unions just don’t fit this kind of work” sounds a heck of a lot like an excuse to avoid having collective bargaining altogether.
I’m not, I’m saying an individual is indulging themselves by simply hand-waiving any employment related problem as “just start collective bargaining and your problems are solved!!!”
Well, if they’re handwaving and not organizing, then yeah. If they’re actually organizing, then no.
In almost all circumstances, being organized for bargaining is going to be better than not being organized for bargaining. That holds whether you’re hand-waving your problems before getting organized or not.
…. You understand that those are two different people, right? The person hand-waving how easy starting a union is and how easily beneficial it can be is not the same person as the worker who has to do the thing lol
Ah, gotcha. Well, my point stands. Unless your hypothetical hand-waver is unemployed or already in an union, I suppose.
I’m not American, so I don’t know how hard it is to unionize in the US. Over here there are massive unions with country-wide presence that typically can set up where needed, as well as segment-specific unions. I’m pretty sure you can either start a new one with a handful of people or just… you know, call a preexisting one and sign up. I’ve heard about companies in the US having way more restrictive steps, having to agree company-wide to unionize and stuff like that. That’s… not how we do it.
It’s very hard here, especially depending on your circumstances - and even when a union is formed they’re often unable to really… get any meaningful progress. Depending on your particular employment, it’s effectively impossible - and it gets harder the poorer you are.
It’s why it’s sometimes frustrating to hear Americans tell other Americans (often less well off than they are) to “just form a Union!”. The leftist version of “pull yourself up by the bootstraps”
Yeeeeah, see, there you lose me.
You can organize, unionized or not, and it seems like organization is a gateway to unionization, regardless of how hard that may be. And it is a fact that organization and collective bargaining will help and is a key path to improvements, so even if it’s hard, it’s still the way to go.
And hey, ultimately the goal is to keep electing pro-unionization leaders so it becomes easier to it’s more feasible. But you don’t stop doing it or recommending it just because it’s harder there.
Okay, so a bunch of people organize and then the boss fires all of them for doing so. That’s not exactly a perfect system leading towards better working conditions
You have to remember that these are the same people who romanticize and call for general strikes without any consideration for what it does to families. Not to mention it doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that most general strikes in history have failed miserably. The reality is that successful union activity is generally small, difficult, and has to be sustained for years.
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Absolutely. It’s really good to hear your perspective on the matter, because yeah - that shit is brutal and SAG-AFTRA was a ‘good outcome’. Many - especially those without the benefit of millions and millions of dollars, celebrity backers, and mass public support, do not have good outcomes.
If you’re interested in this kind of thing, “Germinal” by Zola is what I find to be the best depiction of a real strike. Because it has genuinely good intentions, but it’s also fucking terrible, and essentially everyone involved ends up worse for wear after it’s done.
Precisely so. It can be grating to see Lemmy, a site full almost exclusively of well-paid computer programmers - preach “just unionize!” With the same oily lips as conservatives who tell millions to “just pull yourself up by the bootstraps!”.
In both cases it’s “talking down” to the end worker, pitching an ‘easy’, one sentence solution to all of their ills without any consideration for the vast amount of effort required in reality.
The one out of touch is you. Have you heard of this place called “the entire world except 'murica”? Unions work pretty well there.
Yeah, and im talking about unions in America. So get bent
Removed by mod
Well… yeah I am. I just said I am. You can’t say “no, you’re actually talking about Finland” hahahah