• robocall@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Why does the compromise guy have a hammer and sickle on him? Is it because these countries were formally part of the USSR?

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      7 months ago

      There are online self-proclaimed leftists who simp for the totalitarian Soviet regime, and often for China as well. The slang term for them is ‘tankies’. Generally speaking, they’re the ones you see online spreading the “Ukraine has to compromise for Russia’s Legitimate Security Concerns!” The hammer-and-sickle is there to represent them.

      It’s very bizarre, considering that most leftists I know, even the ones I butt heads with, recognize that Putin’s Russia is an imperialist and fascist state. But no one has ever accused tankies of being consistent.

      • NotAtWork@startrek.website
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        7 months ago

        Don’t worry, some tankie will be along to correct you that Russia doesn’t meet the exact textbook definition of Fascism, so it is actually a utopia.

        • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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          7 months ago

          My favorite incorrect definition for tankies is, they dont actually like communism, they just like tanks.

          They like “dictatorships of the proletariat,” and if they think that is given to them by Daddy Big Boots, then theyll simp for him hard as they can.

          Absolutely loving the pushback against their shit here on .world, it was getting bleak there for a minute…

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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            7 months ago

            Yeah. Tankies in most places are absolutely inconsequential, but they’re very prominent on the Fediverse. It’s good to push back against the poisonous parts of their ideology (like ‘Imperialism is good if it’s a capitalist state that’s not part of the West doing it’).

            Would hate to see that kind of vile fascist shit normalized on here.

        • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          …in the most verbose way possible, with bonus points for referencing people out of context, cherrypicking their worst takes, or just deferring to lunatics in a ghish gallop too exhausting to be worth challenging.

    • takeda@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Today were can clearly see that, communism was always a red herring. Tankies during cold war and tankies today (that love to dress in American flags), were always about supporting of totalitarian regimes.

      The hammer and sickle is to support USSR.

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Tankie is a special sort of communist. Doesn’t seem fair to paint all communists as tankies.

        • magikmw@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          Tankie is just facist wearing red instead of brown. Leave communism out of it.

        • Aux@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Seems pretty fair to me. Socialism and communism are inherently totalitarian.

          • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            Definitely not imo, if we are talking about the ideology. Many socialist/communist countries have been totalitarian though, so there’s a big divide between the ideological basis and goals and what has ended up happening.

            • Barbarian@sh.itjust.works
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              7 months ago

              Sort of? Vanguardism is inherently totalitarian, for example. The core idea is that the vanguard know better than the poor proles what’s good for them (Maoism is basically vanguardism). Stalinism is quite obviously and clearly totalitarian, putting rapid “strong” decision-making for the goal of rapid economic development above everything.

              There are more democratic and equal forms of socialism, like Democratic socialism, syndicalism, mutualism (if you accept anarchists as part of the umbrella) and so on.

              My core point is that socialism can be totalitarian or not depending on the actual ideology inside the big varied umbrella term.

              • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                7 months ago

                Well put. I just meant more that socialism and communism doesn’t have to be totalitarian, ideologically a lot of the views inside those can be close to anarchism. The real life examples of socialist and communist states we’ve had (the thing people think of often when they think of socialism and communism) have just been examples of it either having been a totalitarian form of it or have devolved to totalitarianism (depending a bit on the interpretation, but that’s a really heave topic).

                • BarrelAgedBoredom@lemm.ee
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                  7 months ago

                  Anarchism is an inherently socialist and communist ideology.

                  Anarchism in short: heirarchy should be abolished

                  Socialism: workers should own the means of production. Being forced into wage labor is a form of heirarchy

                  Communism: a stateless (hierarchical structure), classless (social heirarchy), moneyless (a system of power that easily lends itself to hierarchical means) society.

                  One way to look at anarchism is a description of the way to realize communism, and continue past it into a more egalitarian social structure. Nobody has successfully realized communism for an extended period of time, but there are/have been projects that were well on their way. The zapatistas, CNT-FAI, and rojava come to mind. We’re lead to view the USSR and China (for example) as socialist/Communist because associating those places with the word understandably puts people off of the idea. Their insistence that they are socialist/communist doesn’t help that either. They never really met the mark imo

            • Aux@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              The whole point of these ideologies is a totalitarian regime.

              • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                7 months ago

                As someone above said it well, it depends. The whole of socialism and communism though, no.

    • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      OP thinks the west should continue to send weapons to Ukraine until Russia pulls out of all former Ukrainian territory, and putin is deposed and sent to the hague, and Russia is balkanized.

      Most communists want it to end as soon as possible, with the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine currently occupied by Russia remaining either independent or in Russia if they vote that way.

      This is usually misconstrued as supporting Russia.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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        7 months ago

        Ah, so you were in favor of the initial peace plan proposed by Zelenskyy at the start of the invasion?

        with the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining either independent or in Russia if they vote that way.

        … and what about the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining part of Ukraine? Is that not an option? Does democracy only count if it benefits Russian interests?

        This is usually misconstrued as supporting Russia.

        No, it’s simply recognizing the Motte-And-Bailey style arguments put forth by red fash. It’s the same pattern as the alt-right.

        • angrymouse@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          and what about the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining part of Ukraine?

          This could be an option but what the cost? You all couch generals understand tha not only Russian ppl but Ukranians lifes are being destroyed?

          Do you undeestand that your option is to the deaths and war crimes keep on going right? Retaken these territories is almost free for you but not for Ucranians.

          Also, no Communist I know defends Putin, Russia is an imperialist scum as US, UK and France that are using Ukraine as their war table.

        • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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          7 months ago

          Ah, so you were in favor of the initial peace plan proposed by Zelenskyy at the start of the invasion?

          I’m not sure which instance you’re talking about.

          Do you mean the one in March 2022 that was torpedoed by Boris Johnson, resulting in Zelenskyy adding such realistic conditions as Putin stepping down before talks can begin after the US/UK gave greater assurances of support.

          But yes, I was in favor of that peace. If you want to go back further, we could have avoided the whole civil war if the US didn’t back a coup, and it could have been smothered in the cradle if the right were purged from the parliament and army in 2014 or any time after, it could have ended without an invasion if Minsk II was simply enforced.

          … and what about the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine remaining part of Ukraine? Is that not an option?

          The russian-speaking parts of Ukraine are occupied by Russia. To change this would require a longer war and more death, all to annex regions that already voted once to join Russia after nearly a decade of civil war.

          Given what was going on during the civil war, even if Russia unilaterally abandoned the territory, there would not be an end to the destruction.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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            7 months ago

            “If the US didn’t back a coup”

            “already voted once to join Russia”

            lmao

            And you wonder why no one takes you lot seriously.

              • Hubi@feddit.de
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                7 months ago

                The invasion started in 2014. It was not an organic movement.

                • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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                  7 months ago

                  I mean you’re not wrong that it wasn’t organic beyond a brief moment near the start of Maidan, before right-wing paramilitaries started sniping cops and massacring civilians and “volunteers” started showing up from both sides, but calling the civil war an invasion seems disingenuous.

                  Not that that justifies either side supporting right-wing militias in Ukraine.

      • BrokenGlepnir@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        You sound like a nazi supporter in 1939 supporting the annexation of the sudetenland. What do you mean the nazis should pull out of the formerly czech territories? I haven’t heard the russian government give any reason they should be there, that the nazis didn’t give.