They should consider Communism.
I wonder if they think they actually DO live under communism?
What do you mean? Communist podcasts I listened to consider them Communist, Internet search says the BBC says they are Communist.
Edit: you all like to downvote instead of having a conversation. Everybody hasn’t studied every subject, try sharing a little of what you know instead of discouraging discussion
Theyre a classless society with no currency?
You sure they arent a capitalist dictatorship disguised as Communist?
Just slap a coat of red paint and a gold star on it and call it communist.
You make some good points. They most definitely have currency and a lower working class with an upper government official class. I would not consider them communist at all. North Korea is just an authoritarian capitalistic hellhole, that tries to sprinkle in one or two socialist policies to maintain the illusion of pursuing communism.
I see in reading more that NK is pretty far from communist. But I think people have imagined communism to be something that it never could be. I don’t see how society could exist without money. I see that Soviets thought that eventually they wouldn’t need money but I think this is unrealistic and I don’t see that existence of money in a society could be used to determine if it’s communist or not. .
Marx said that socialism is the gateway for communism. Bring the means of prouction to the working class, then youd be able to make the next transition to communism.
In any case, there are no societies currently that meet the primary criteria for being called socialist OR communist.
Exactly, satisfying the highest standard is not a criteria for categorisation. It’s the same as saying USA isn’t capitalistic because governament regulations are still a thing
I don’t see how society could exist without money.
The fact you are incapable of understanding something doesn’t change truth.
This is the problem with people promoting socialism. They tend to compare idealized version of socialism with real version of capitalism. And such comparison inevitably leads to unrealistic conclusions.
The problem is that real version of socialism is what you see in China or Cuba or former USSR. The argument with “we haven’t done socialism right” is the same as “we haven’t done capitalism right”.
I have been born in socialist country and to this day I can see negative consequences of that era. And the obvious reason why ideal socialism can’t exist - people. Same reason why capitalism sucks.
Edit: To people downvoting me: Your fake internet points have no meaning, but I love the irony of it. You can’t even keep the illusion of classlessness and equality in an internet thread, yet you are somehow convinced you could run a country like that. You’d be locking people for life in your communist paradise just for having different opinion and you know it.
Lenin himself called the system he instituted state capitalism, it was supposed to be a transitory state as Marx said (and the Bolsheviks were very big on historical materialism) that first you have capitalism, develop productivity, then communism would follow naturally as a consequence of resolving capitalism’s inherent contradictions.
The gaslighting started with Stalin, who invented the term “really existing socialism” to make it doubly clear that it was neither real, existed, or was socialism.
The closest any society ever got to communism isn’t via the Bolshevik “dictatorship of the proletariat” (aka dictatorship of the state bureaucracy), but via Anarchism. Horizontal organisation, abolish hierarchies. Very early revolutionary Russia qualifies until the Bolsheviks abolished councils in practice, Rojava qualifies, Chiapas qualifies, revolutionary Spain (until Bolsheviks teamed up with fascists to kill it off), revolutionary Ukraine (until the Bolsheviks – I think you see the pattern).
Yes, exactly it always fails, because it just does not scale. It’s an idea, that can’t exist in reality on a country level. You can point to Freetown Christiania as an example - a small anarchist commune, that already shows some major cracks in its structure. I mean, just grow family business a bit and you can already see structures and hierarchy emerging.
Rojava is about 4.6 million people, about as many as Kuwait. About 11 Icelands worth of population.
Definition of Socialism: the workers own the means of production.
Which country were you born in where you owned the means of production?
I was born in country where intellectuals were in jail and uneducated workers were put to management positions, because they should own the means of production or some bullshit like that. You can imagine the end result of that.
And again, this is the same “that wasn’t true socialism” argument. Obviously it wasn’t. The socialism as per your definition can’t exist on a country level. You can see it being implemented on a small company level (think family owned businesses) but the bigger it gets the more the cracks show and it just does not scale.
You don’t need money going to shareholders in order to scale. You need management structure. Even anarchists would say they’re against unnecessary hierarchy, and at least a little structure is generally necessary. Top management does not need to be paid 300-to-1 over the average worker. Nor do they need to specifically represent shareholders, which is what a CEO is.
lemmygrad in shambles.
lemmygrad mod if they were chinese union buster in this situation: YOU’RE BREAKING LEFTIST UNITY
Leftists need to unify to protect institutionalized capitalism. It’s the only way!
Shadow boxing
I’m legitimately curious about their takes on this…
I crossposted yesterday. They just ignore anything they don’t like.
I don’t think they are federated? Neither is the other big community whatever it’s called.
Hexbear.
Hell yeah, power to the proletariat!
North Koreans in China showing the world how it’s done. Who had THAT on their bingo card ?
Americans forget their middle class existed for the short time it did exactly because of actions like this.
You don’t fight the enemy sitting on your toilet reading Lemmy posts. (It’s still fun though)
There is the working class and the owning class. All other distinctions are a waste of brain power.
Raises Fist … not to get too deep into it… but at this point we’re closer to the Transnational Capitalist class vs Everyone else .
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnational_capitalist_class
Until China has to kill all of them because North Korea won’t take them back.
Welcome to the Rednecks, North Koreans.
What the fuck are you talking about?
What exactly are you confused about?
That the Chinese and North Koreans would rather kill 2000 people than pay them? Or The history and origin of the original Redneck?
I don’t think they’ll be killed. Neither North Korea nor China are that stupid. I do think that they’ll be forced to work until they drop and paid nothing or paid a pittance, even by Chinese standards, with the bulk of the value of their labour being split between the company that they work for and the Chinese and North Korean states.
dude, they decided to have a little uprising and decapitated their boss (who in systems like china gets the job because of government connections), they have done a lot worse for a lot less
mao zedong would be proud.
Watch the so-called “Communist” Party leaders decry this and crush it violently. Marx is rolling so much in his grave that if they attached a generator to him they could power half of China with the electricity
The riot occurred at a clothing manufacturing and seafood processing factory
That…is an interesting combination
My boss ordered an anti-fatigue mat from Amazon recently and entirety of the inside of that package smelled like a fish market.
an anti-fatigue mat
What is that because I am fatigued as fuck. I really need one. I’m OK with it smelling like fish.
it is a cushioned mat that is supposed to make your feet or legs not hurt from standing in one spot. I’m not sure how well they actually work but I’ve got one infront of the sink for when I’m doing dishes.
They make a ton of difference if you’re standing on a hard floor for more than an hour or two. Still worse than something to sit on but stools are a luxury beyond the reach of American workers.
When you have nothing left, you riot.
I’m all for worker’s rights, but killing the plant manager was a touch much.
you dont know what that guy has done. maybe he’s killed workers himself.
Dunno if we should justify murder by violent mobs by speculating that the person might’ve deserved it.
When North Koreans unionize, they don’t fuck around.
I read this somewhere else on Lemmy recently (sorry for comment steal):
American companies that are trying to dismantle unions need to understand that unions were a compromise to protect the companies. Because this is the alternative.
This issue extends to politicians as well. If you replace “Ancien Régime” with “Oligarchy-flavored Republic” it’s almost like we’re living the beginning script of the French Revolution here in America. That should induce quite the pandemic of sweaty palms in D.C. If that Oaf gets reelected, we’re gonna have a Louis XVI on our hands… and we all know how that went down…
Bad communist rioters…
Better than anything occurring here. American workers are all talk.
Do you believe the conditions between US workers and North Korean workers in China are similar?
Wrong question; don’t give a fuck.
Anyone who accepts their servitude because someone else’s situation is worse is a fucking moron.
So the question is: Are you a fucking moron?
I’m not. Are you?
I’m not so sure the 4th part or your statement is true.
A much higher percentage of US workers are satisfied with their jobs, that’s why they don’t riot.
This article of the BBC gives more contexts.
I wonder how many mental gymnastics is needed by tankies to explain that.
This is a coal mine canary of the future of china, civil unrest and wealth inequity for everyone!
So exactly the same as the rest of the industrialized world?
India has some social issues comparable to the rest of the industrialized world, for sure, but on a completely different scale because of their long arduous history of marginalization and castes. China is an expansionist dictatorship which is a whole other animal.
Expansionist?
China took over Hong Kong by means of corruption and military force, attempted but failed to do the same thing with Taiwan. They’ve been raiding Tibet and tearing down temples, rounding monks up like cattle. They’ve even been having constant border disputes with India. That’s all in the last decade. Imagine taking over multiple other nations in a 4 year period and not thinking that is overly aggressive for modern international relationships. Hell, they’ve even been having border disputes with the damn oceans: China landfilled the sea between Hong Kong and Borneo for military use and to gain territory in a contested region. They’ve recently been accused of overfishing with Cyanide in the Philippines, as well.
can we do that too
You’re a literal slave? You are not paid for the work you do? You work sleep work and nothing else? You are physically and mentally mistreated at work? Does your work make you suicidal? Are you unable to switch to a different job? Do you live under a dictatorial regime? Will you be shot and killed if you try to escape?
Yeah, I doubt you can honestly say yes to even a single one of those questions. Some of today’s work environments have issues, with a lot of them caused by companies, but a lot of them also caused by the likes of you who do want the perks and the money, but who just flat out refuse to do anything at all beyond complaining and talking about murdering those that did work hard.
I’ve been a low level employee, I’ve been dirt poor, I worked myself up over the years. I’ve had loads of shitty bosses, I’ve been (technically still am) a company owner, now I’m a C level director. I work hard, work responsibly, and try to do the best for all employees in my teams. Should I be murdered too?
With people like you it’s not the company that is a problem, you are the problem. Fix your own life before you start threatening those that you don’t like
This guy is so staunch in his toxic capitalism at the cost of everything that he didn’t even stop to consider that this may be a joke.
Somebody makes a valid argument and well, since we don’t know how to respond, we’ll just call it toxic capitalism.
Capitalism has issues, some severe, that can and must be fixed. Fee people will disagree there. You, however, are the type that actually believes that Communism is great and will solve all of our problems. Writing, probably, from your phone without realizing that that same phone is in your hands because of capitalism (ands butt loads of science, also supported by capitalism), just like the pants on your butt and the food in your belly and the medicine that has or will save your life.
You want capitalism to support a strong social system that gives you all the perks like free healthcare, free education, maybe even universal income.
Because it’s not a joke to Phoenixz. He’s just got the boot so far down his throat there’s no alternative. Reading his comment, it sounds like one of those people who owns a job not a business, and/or one of those people who thinks he’s now in the 1%s good graces now that he makes $100k/yr.
Survivorship bias much…
… What are you even talking about?
Google it.
You ok? Boomerang lashing at some capitalist bullying you’ve suffered?
How about you actually read what I wrote and then try again, instead of just seeing something you don’t like, stop reading, and try to make some half assed witty response?
I suffered nothing, you’re the ones literally acting like capitalism is only slavery
They’ve conditioned him into blindly accepting and preaching the dogma.
What dogma? That we should all contribute to society, and get something in return for that?
Do you understand the mental gymnastics you’re doing here? You literally use the pinnacle of capitalism and science, a mobile phone ( I presume, if not, a computer works too) to bitch about the evils of capitalism and how you want to get rid of it and how evil it is for allowing you to do this in the first place. Because yes, without capitalism, you would not have this phone. You would not have most of the things you take for granted.
I’m presuming here that you’re young, 15-25 or so, and that you still have a lot of facts to learn about this world. I’ll assume you didn’t learn much history because if you did you’d know that capitalism has a lot of issues, that can and should be resolved, but it’s a buttload better than the alternatives
Gal, chill. Take a dipirone or something. You can criticize the system from within the system. The feudal owners of the pitchforks and guillotines during the Revolution probably noted the irony, too, when they were brought in to weigh.
You assume a great deal based on a smart ass quip. Go jerk off to Ayn Rand some more you autistic twat.
I have been in a position in the past to answer yes to more than one of those questions, many of the people I used to work with still can.
So you’re living in a dictatorship, I presume? Because you don’t find any of that crap in any western (ie, capitalist, ooohhh!) country.
Years ago, I took a job at a call center. These jobs paid, on average at the time, about 10 dollars an hour. Which was more than minimum wage, but not by much.
Jobs other than call center work for under educated, under experienced people in my city were really hard to find. The good employers were almost never hiring, hired from within, and outsourced the entry level stuff. The vast majority of available jobs to myself and ultimately the other 300 people that ended up going through that particular call center were customer service roles.
That industry is notoriously difficult to break out of. You’d say ‘just go find a different job.’ and yeah that’s good in theory. But everyone working those jobs is always looking for another job. No one takes a call center job and isn’t thinking about getting a better job. If those jobs were readily available, call center staff simply wouldn’t exist. These are jobs of last resort. A step up from flipping burgers.
The pay is barely enough to afford rent and groceries. That was years ago, it’s probably much worse now. I had roommates. Without them I wouldn’t have been able to afford much other than going to work and back and feeding myself, nevermind driving all over town trying to find another job.
Thing is at these jobs you’re infinitely replaceable. As desperate as you were when you took it, there are ten other people behind you, just as if not more desperate for work. They will literally hire people off the street and throw them in training within a day.
So not only can you not afford to lose this job, you can’t afford to speak up at this job. You can’t unionize, because mentioning it will get you fired on the spot, you can’t speak up about abusive situations, because HR will simply fire you. You can’t even report illegal practices.
So on to this particular call center job. This was basically just filling mail order prescriptions. Theoretically people would call in, tell someone what they’d needed, we’d click a few buttons and in a week they’d have a 90 day supply.
That’s not what happened. 95% of the calls we received were problems. Most of the day was spent either being screamed at, or pleaded with, with none of the tools we needed to actually address these problems. To add to this, we were constantly watched by management. Quality, supervisors, auditors, trainers, you name it. If they weren’t taking calls they were listening to calls. My record was 3 simultaneous people listening in to a single phone call while it was happening but I heard of more. Any deviation from our very strict rules meant immediate and swift correction from everyone that heard about it, every time they heard about it. That was the only feedback.
Because we were not trained for the type of work we were doing, this negative feedback was constant.
Add to that, they gave us a really bizarre schedule. No one started at the same time every day. No one had two days off in a row. You might start at 11 am one day and 630 am next. You can imagine, bathroom breaks were also tightly monitored and yes, more than one woman was fired because they were pregnant and peed too frequently.
All of this is to just provide some context you apparently sorely need.
I found more than one suicide note at that job. Generally hidden under keyboards. I know at least one woman did commit suicide while employed there, two others that committed suicide in the years following, still working similar jobs.
It’s important to know how trapped these jobs make you feel. Not only are you rarely ever actually able to help anyone, the company you’re working for is actively making shitty business decisions and counting on you to smooth it over for them. Your managers are under pressure to keep your call times low and your answered calls high, and that shit rolls down hill. You can’t just quit, you can’t easily find a different job, you can’t afford to do anything other than work and sleep.
So no, it’s not a dictatorship. But that’s not the fucking problem.
There are different kinds of slavery. A wage slave is no different than a chattel slave in many ways, but of course very different in others.
And you are quite literally making shit up and call it an argument. Wage slave? really?
You are arguing that you kust want to sit and get shit for free? Is that it? Or are you one of those delusional ones that wants to make their own food on their own garden, and somehow believe that that will magically work, even though it obviously can’t?
You’re a small and angry individual and I have no idea what the fuck you’re trying to say.
There is a very realistic chance that I’m taller than you, and I’m very very much not angry. I’m slightly annoyed though by people spouting rhetoric whilst apparently not able to read highschool level English.
What part is it that you don’t understand? I’ll happily elaborate
wage slavery is abhorrent, even if you happen to like it.
Maybe learn a little before you start talking about things you don’t understand? You’re literally parrotting nonsense statements that sound cool but mean nothing.
this is pure rhetoric. it doesn’t even undermine what it said. it’s pure posturing.
Wage slavery literally is an oxymoron but yeah, I’m the one spouting rhetoric. You don’t understand even the basic of what you wantzl, not how capitalism works.
All slavery aside… YOU! Motherfucker! Are the problem.
Great argument! Now go back to sitting and being useless to everyone, just like you’re doing now.
Nobody gets paid for the work they do under capitalism. The proletariat gets his value stolen, the Cs and owners get paid for work they didn’t do.
So you’ve never received a salary, then? You always worked for free? Because if so, I think there in lies the problem. Go look for a job that is paid, and you’ll no longer be a slave. Problem solved. Next!
Are you stupid or illiterate?
😍
