Note the words “acts committed with **intent **to destroy, in whole or in part”
Also “Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;” There is evidence of Netanyaho and other ministers doing this. Just now some minister was talking about settling Gaza, again implying the total removal of Palestinians.
On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land
invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of
Amalek by the Israelites, stating: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our
Holy Bible. And we do remember”.446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter
sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads
as follows: “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but
kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses”
This is Israel’s stated intent! If we let them continue, that is what we have to assume will happen! 1.5 million refugees inside Gaza, locked in, no power, not enough food and water, most hospitals bombed, population density of new york. What do you think is going to happen?
It’s called the “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”, not the “lets sit back and discuss the finer technical details until they are all dead before we judge” convention.
There is a story how all this is obfuscated at CNN but similar is happening in German public broadcasting. Germany admirably protests against the AfD, but the government is making Germany complicit in Genocide again.
So under this ridiculously broad definition any war whatsoever is genocide.
We both know that’s not a good definition nor is it really an accurate one historically. Nor is it what the vast overwhelming majority of people think genocide means.
And if the vast overall majority of people think one thing of a word that it doesn’t matter that a book says this is the actual meaning because people collectively decide what the meaning of words are.
Either way even this broad approach fails anyway because Israel is not trying to destroy Palestinians They’re trying to destroy a terrorist group that routinely murders people en masse.
They’re trying to destroy a terrorist group that routinely murders people en masse.
Ok. Do you think after this bombing campaign - one of the most intense in modern history - in your judgement if you look at what the 1.5 million Palestinians are going through: Do you think there are now more or less of them wanting to fight for Hamas?
No I’m genuinely curious. If those are the state goals of the campaign that justify all this slaughter, you must think this is eventually going to stop before it becomes a genocide? You must think eventually “oh we got the last hamas fighter, now we can leave!”.
If you don’t think that, honestly to yourself, then you must agree that at best the motivation is blind raging hatred (racism) or vengeance or political opportunism, or at worse the motivation is a “final solution” for the palestinian question.
A one state solution to create a Israel/Palestine and an end to Apartheid is the only sensible long term solution. I fully agree.
But we are further away from that than we ever were. Not even the most progressive voices in politics suggest that. I think you’re very unaware how bad things have gotten in Israel, how far into fascism they have gone.
There are only few independent dissident voices that are not part of competing geopolitical camps (e.g. rt, aljazeera) but they exist: Democracy Now and The Majority Report w/ Sam Seeder. They interview actual experts or professors about these topics instead of pundits. I strongly suggest you search for “Israel” for articles from those channels to get a different perspective.
Look at the corruption of Netanyaho and how they removed the PLO and propped up Hamas for political gain. Look at their laws that criminalizes expressing support for Palestine (suggesting a one state solution would most likely get you arrested in Israel). Look at the fervent fascism blooming there. Look at all the war crimes, and look at how they occupied Gaza for more than 50 years and what that does to a people. Look at the talk about the biblical story of amalek.
And I don’t think it makes sense to argue from history, e.g. why Israeli’s deserve a homeland and why the arab states had a problem with that. But before 1950 there was apparently very little anti-semitism in arab states so the opposition is political. If you want to talk about the wars around the time, you’d also have to talk about how Israel came to live where Palestinians used to live before (Nakba). The Arabs had no hand in the holocaust. From there perspective Israel was a colonial enterprise by white European people that displaced the people who lived there for a millennium. Unfortunately that gets us nowhere.
Saying Israel holds the moral high ground and is somehow pure is absolute madness!
You can also argue that Israels geopolitical role in the region is to be a proxy for US empire interests - to destabilize and control Arab countries in the region and prevent democracy in Arab countries. Because that would make them much harder to control and exploit for resources. You can find much in declassified or even public documentation. This is at least partially true and has a major effect on the situation.
Israel effectively occupied and controlled Palestine for 50 years and had that long to turn things around. Using education, propaganda and stability to create a lasting peace. But they simply didn’t and still don’t want that, they want a country all to their own based on their identity as Jews and not be “outbred” by Arabs.
So how can you get to a one state solution when there are so many geopolitical and cultural forces pushing to the exact opposite direction? We do not even have mainstream press reporting accurately on any of this, so you can’t even have a discussion based on reality.
For a working democracy you need modest prosperity, education and safety. The prerequisites are worse than ever for both parties.
BTW the US alleges that what China is doing to alter the culture of uyghur is a “cultural” genocide. Which btw was a reaction after the US funded radical Islamic separatists in China.
To stand by Israel and say “they wouldn’t go that far” is not learning from history.
It’s unreasonable to not respect conquest and annexation.
Yeah that was my point, it’s unproductive to dredge up the history, you have to find reasonable solutions to allow people a dignified life now. And the majority of Palestinians are actually on board with that.
I’m all in favor of giving Palestinians reparations but after that it needs to be in exchange for releasing all claims to the land. And they need to be resettled with equity and dignity in friendly Arab nations with a compatible culture.
I’m not sure if you can seriously believe your justification for pushing out the Palestinians. Especially since you’re constructing a narrative based on Jews “deserving” this because of holocaust - which justifies it based on ancient history again and makes it explicitly a European colonial project. Which it was. Anyway - displacing them is not an option, the “friendly arab neighbors” are a different ethnicity and don’t want them. That again is racial bias to think “they are all the same”.
So yeah the only viable solution would be a one state, and that AFTER Israel has been “denazified”. Because that’s what they are more or less now. Fascists who believe that there can never be peace between those “sub humans”. They kept millions of people in occupied areas, and actively suppressed any peaceful movements in the illusion that this is somehow sustainable. FYI a modern definition of fascism is a belief in “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”. Israel now is basically the US after 20 years of Trump rule. We (US and EU) need to stop supporting them.
I’ve grown up with this propaganda in my head too that the arabs are just violence terrorist and bomb etc. And that the Jews need to be protected. But to say “never again” most of all means to prevent genocide. Israel’s regime now calls everyone who criticizes them antisemitic and actively seeks to create anti-semitism for their own political gain.
And I would have loved to stand back and not get involved in this, but my government made my country complicit by aiding Israel perpetrate this genocide. I just hope it’s not too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide
Note the words “acts committed with **intent **to destroy, in whole or in part”
Also “Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;” There is evidence of Netanyaho and other ministers doing this. Just now some minister was talking about settling Gaza, again implying the total removal of Palestinians.
This is Israel’s stated intent! If we let them continue, that is what we have to assume will happen! 1.5 million refugees inside Gaza, locked in, no power, not enough food and water, most hospitals bombed, population density of new york. What do you think is going to happen?
It’s called the “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”, not the “lets sit back and discuss the finer technical details until they are all dead before we judge” convention.
There is a story how all this is obfuscated at CNN but similar is happening in German public broadcasting. Germany admirably protests against the AfD, but the government is making Germany complicit in Genocide again.
So under this ridiculously broad definition any war whatsoever is genocide.
We both know that’s not a good definition nor is it really an accurate one historically. Nor is it what the vast overwhelming majority of people think genocide means.
And if the vast overall majority of people think one thing of a word that it doesn’t matter that a book says this is the actual meaning because people collectively decide what the meaning of words are.
Either way even this broad approach fails anyway because Israel is not trying to destroy Palestinians They’re trying to destroy a terrorist group that routinely murders people en masse.
Ok. Do you think after this bombing campaign - one of the most intense in modern history - in your judgement if you look at what the 1.5 million Palestinians are going through: Do you think there are now more or less of them wanting to fight for Hamas?
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No I’m genuinely curious. If those are the state goals of the campaign that justify all this slaughter, you must think this is eventually going to stop before it becomes a genocide? You must think eventually “oh we got the last hamas fighter, now we can leave!”.
If you don’t think that, honestly to yourself, then you must agree that at best the motivation is blind raging hatred (racism) or vengeance or political opportunism, or at worse the motivation is a “final solution” for the palestinian question.
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A one state solution to create a Israel/Palestine and an end to Apartheid is the only sensible long term solution. I fully agree.
But we are further away from that than we ever were. Not even the most progressive voices in politics suggest that. I think you’re very unaware how bad things have gotten in Israel, how far into fascism they have gone.
There are only few independent dissident voices that are not part of competing geopolitical camps (e.g. rt, aljazeera) but they exist: Democracy Now and The Majority Report w/ Sam Seeder. They interview actual experts or professors about these topics instead of pundits. I strongly suggest you search for “Israel” for articles from those channels to get a different perspective.
Look at the corruption of Netanyaho and how they removed the PLO and propped up Hamas for political gain. Look at their laws that criminalizes expressing support for Palestine (suggesting a one state solution would most likely get you arrested in Israel). Look at the fervent fascism blooming there. Look at all the war crimes, and look at how they occupied Gaza for more than 50 years and what that does to a people. Look at the talk about the biblical story of amalek.
And I don’t think it makes sense to argue from history, e.g. why Israeli’s deserve a homeland and why the arab states had a problem with that. But before 1950 there was apparently very little anti-semitism in arab states so the opposition is political. If you want to talk about the wars around the time, you’d also have to talk about how Israel came to live where Palestinians used to live before (Nakba). The Arabs had no hand in the holocaust. From there perspective Israel was a colonial enterprise by white European people that displaced the people who lived there for a millennium. Unfortunately that gets us nowhere.
Saying Israel holds the moral high ground and is somehow pure is absolute madness!
You can also argue that Israels geopolitical role in the region is to be a proxy for US empire interests - to destabilize and control Arab countries in the region and prevent democracy in Arab countries. Because that would make them much harder to control and exploit for resources. You can find much in declassified or even public documentation. This is at least partially true and has a major effect on the situation.
Israel effectively occupied and controlled Palestine for 50 years and had that long to turn things around. Using education, propaganda and stability to create a lasting peace. But they simply didn’t and still don’t want that, they want a country all to their own based on their identity as Jews and not be “outbred” by Arabs.
So how can you get to a one state solution when there are so many geopolitical and cultural forces pushing to the exact opposite direction? We do not even have mainstream press reporting accurately on any of this, so you can’t even have a discussion based on reality.
For a working democracy you need modest prosperity, education and safety. The prerequisites are worse than ever for both parties.
BTW the US alleges that what China is doing to alter the culture of uyghur is a “cultural” genocide. Which btw was a reaction after the US funded radical Islamic separatists in China.
To stand by Israel and say “they wouldn’t go that far” is not learning from history.
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Yeah that was my point, it’s unproductive to dredge up the history, you have to find reasonable solutions to allow people a dignified life now. And the majority of Palestinians are actually on board with that.
But the current regime in Israel and the geopolitical strategies in the middle east are just… abominable. Long before Okt.7 Israel used genocidal tactics by creating a fascist legal system and try to push out and disenfranchise Palestinians more and more (e.g. Israel Escalates Genocidal Violence Against Palestinians In The West Bank - YouTube Jul.8th 2023)
If you want to know the lies and propaganda that is being used to fool the world around all this, read this: Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians - theintercept Feb.7th 2024. Or at least the beginning, it’s long but in depth.
I’m not sure if you can seriously believe your justification for pushing out the Palestinians. Especially since you’re constructing a narrative based on Jews “deserving” this because of holocaust - which justifies it based on ancient history again and makes it explicitly a European colonial project. Which it was. Anyway - displacing them is not an option, the “friendly arab neighbors” are a different ethnicity and don’t want them. That again is racial bias to think “they are all the same”.
So yeah the only viable solution would be a one state, and that AFTER Israel has been “denazified”. Because that’s what they are more or less now. Fascists who believe that there can never be peace between those “sub humans”. They kept millions of people in occupied areas, and actively suppressed any peaceful movements in the illusion that this is somehow sustainable. FYI a modern definition of fascism is a belief in “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”. Israel now is basically the US after 20 years of Trump rule. We (US and EU) need to stop supporting them.
I’ve grown up with this propaganda in my head too that the arabs are just violence terrorist and bomb etc. And that the Jews need to be protected. But to say “never again” most of all means to prevent genocide. Israel’s regime now calls everyone who criticizes them antisemitic and actively seeks to create anti-semitism for their own political gain.
And I would have loved to stand back and not get involved in this, but my government made my country complicit by aiding Israel perpetrate this genocide. I just hope it’s not too late.
Some links:
An interview with the Author of the above intercept article: Jeremy Scahill on Israel's "Deliberate Propaganda Campaign" - YouTube
Report Finds “No Evidence” in Key Dossier to Support Israel’s UNRWA Allegations | Truthout
Israel’s free speech crackdown: ‘War inside of a war’ - The Washington Post Nov 12th, 2023
Israeli Kids Torment Principal Who Voices Empathy For Gazans - YouTube Jan 7, 2024
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