- cross-posted to:
- automotive@discuss.tchncs.de
- cross-posted to:
- automotive@discuss.tchncs.de
Rental firm Hertz Global Holdings (HTZ.O) said on Thursday it would sell about 20,000 electric vehicles, including Teslas, from its U.S. fleet due to higher expenses related to collision and damage, and will opt for gas-powered vehicles.
Shares of the company, which also operates vehicles from Swedish EV maker Polestar among others, fell about 4%. Tesla’s (TSLA.O) stock was down about 3%.
Hertz also expects to book an about $245 million charge related to depreciation expenses from the proposed EV sale in the fourth quarter of 2023.
Hertz’s decision underscores the bumpy road EVs have hit as the growth rate on sales of those vehicles has slowed, causing carmakers like General Motors (GM.N) and Ford (F.N) to scale back production plans of those vehicles.
Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas in a note said the car rental firm’s move was a warning across the EV space and it was another sign that EV expectations need to be “reset downward across the market.”
“While consumers enjoy the driving experience and fuel savings (per mile) of an EV, there are other ‘hidden’ costs to EV ownership,” Jonas added.
The main hidden cost is that regular ass people aren’t going to be able to afford one for another twenty years or more.
I’m in my forties, and I’m still driving a car from 1999.
I have never owned a new car, all my vehicles have been used, and I’ve bought them in cash, outright, no car payment.
The prices will never come down on a used EV enough for me to justify the purchase, especially since I can find cars from 20 years ago that don’t have excess features that will cost me more money to repair. Like a bunch of rear-view cameras and sensors, often placed inside the bumper, make a small fender bender into a costly repair bill because it’s no longer just a bumper, it’s a bumper with all kinds of expensive shit inside of it.
You can’t find an EV with roll-down windows, no extras, and just a radio. They don’t fucking make 'em. EV’s were just the first step of the auto industry fully embracing that all vehicles are luxury, and economy cars just don’t exist anymore.
Add to all this that charging networks haven’t exactly rolled out nationwide and you’re left with feeling stuck with ICE cars longer than you’d like.
I would have loved an EV a decade ago, but literally nobody is making an EV I can fucking afford before I croak.
Long story short: As with everything, the blame will be put disproportionately on the poor while ignoring that buying an EV is something most poor people simply cannot afford.
Yup, a cheap EV is an EV with a dead $20k battery in it
Hertz is selling them used starting around $17k (yesterday) and now up to ~$22k:
https://www.hertzcarsales.com/rent2buy-inventory/index.htm?geoRadius=0&geoZip=94538&make=Tesla&sortBy=internetPrice
If you’re in the US and meet the income requirements, you should be able to apply the Used Clean Vehicle Credit to drop the price by $4k.
$18k for a used vehicle in 2024 isn’t doing too bad.
And specifically for Hertz, used EV prices ended up hurting them a lot here. Tesla’s price cuts combined with how fast EVs depreciate over the first couple years impacted their ability to re-coup the cost of the vehicles leading to this.
I’m about as interested in servicing a Tesla as Hertz is, especially considering the exploding suspension parts.
The parts availability would be the biggest pain in the ass. I personally would avoid any Model 3 more than a couple years old because of various manufacturing things they’ve run into.
I’m seeing ~$33k for Model 3s. I thought that’s what they were supposed to be new. No way I’m paying that for a former rental.
Yeah, Hertz’s pricing on their EV sales seems to be at the absolute upper end of the market, which is crazy for rentals. I was hoping their 20,000 unit sell-off would drive down used prices, but if anything it’s going to cause them to go up.
What?!? I’ve never paid $18k for a car.
Because of various effects related to the pandemic, the used car market drove the average price of a used car to insane prices. I’m sure you can find cars for cheaper, but:
KBB claims $26510 (Feb 2023)
CR claims around $27k (Aug 2023)
And if this data source from Statista is to be believed, $18k would be below average in 2016.
the used car market is still so borked that I can’t afford one at all.
Absolutely and it fucking sucks since it costs so much more to even finance a car.
Ring me when I can buy it with $3k-5k in cash like I’ve been doing most of my damn life or I will continue to not give one fucking shit.
$18k, what a fucking joke and a half, for a vehicle that’s way more costly to repair.
My fiat 500e is worth ~$5k.
Simple car, minimal extra features when compared with new. And as of this year a decade old.
I Love it, never had issues with it, and since I bought it 5 years ago has saved me it’s current value in not buying gas alone, not including oil changes, brakes, etc.
I’m not saying ev is for everyone right now and I agree the current ev available new don’t seem to be likely to be good used cars. Just that this one seems to be one that doesn’t fit a lot of your complaints.
This one is finally going to be available in the US in 2024, but I have a deep dread that import costs are going to make it not so cheap of a used vehicle in the US.
Europe and China have blown the US out of the water on affordable EVs and I guess maybe I should make clear I’m speaking very, very Amerocentrically on this issue.
There’s literally a number of affordable Chinese EVs that don’t have a bunch of extra features, but the cost of getting one to the US and making it street legal is basically more than a conventional EV.
I think you misunderstood me. I have the gen1 500e. Not the facelift model. Mine is a 2013 model year.
They were sold in California and Washington almost exclusively.
Wild, I was unaware of that. Looking at the Seattle craigslist, it looks like the Seattle area has a handful of used ones in that price range, 2015 models.
The older 500e was a “compliance car” that only gets about 80 miles of range and doesn’t charge very quickly m. Fine for going to the grocery or maybe work if it’s nearby. That’s about it.
The 2024 model isn’t much better. Only about 120 miles of range and hella expensive for what it is. You’d be better off getting something else with fast charging and 200 miles or more of range.
I mean that’s fair about the earlier model, 80 miles would be tight, even for a local commuter.
However, I really am a local commuter, it’s part of how I keep low miles on my vehicles post-purchase, and while 80 miles of range feels a little tight for a busy day. 120 miles, well… I think I’ve maxed out a daily trip of “getting shit done” at 100 miles, so in my particular use-case, 120 miles would leave me about a 20 mile buffer on my busiest of days.
So, for me at least, the newer model is actually relatively in-line with my needs, but still several years away from being affordable used, considering the cheapest 2015 model I see is $5000 (with more of them in the $7k-10k range), and its a 9 year old vehicle. I’ll still be pushing my sixties before I can really afford one, likely. Which is in line with my original point: most poor people will spend their lives still driving ICE vehicles.
That’s simply not in line with reality. Used gas cars aren’t even selling for that low.
Funny because my local craigslist has fucking plenty of 2000-2010 vehicles in that price range. Plenty of private sellers still go in that range.
Sure, if you want a vehicle with 250k miles or known transmission issues (i.e. Ford Fiesta).
My Pontiac with less than 110k miles on it (only just broke 100k last year) begs to differ but you do you.
Tesla didn’t even start making the Model S until two years after Pontiac was killed off.
The 1970’s called - they want the idea that cars are worn out at 250k miles back.
Modern cars with 250k miles are just broken in. They are not in perfect condition anymore, but with minimal maintenance most still have a lot of life left.
That’s just buying a used car. No new cars have ever been in the 3k-5k range…my car from like 10 years ago was in the 18k range.
deleted by creator
EVs are a lot cheaper to run so maybe you shouldn’t concentrate exclusively on the sticker price. Also, in the long term EVs will be cheaper to buy than gas cars too. Right now the limited availability of batteries puts limits on EV adoption. That will change in the next few years. Then EVs will be both cheaper to buy and to run than gas cars. The problem of increasing complexity and worse repairability applies to all modern vehicles, regardless of drive train.
Golly gee whillickers, it looks like I’m already aware of that.
Once again, not before I fucking die. I’ve been waiting for one most of my adult life.
How, by couping a country with a lot of lithium like Bolivia?
For starters… by getting rid of lithium. Alternatives might have a lower energy density in theory but also not the thermal issues of lithium-ion batteries. Which means you can pack them more densely without issues, or -even better- produce bigger cells instead of stacking small ones. So in practice they will perform on a similiar level but cheaper, making lithium-based batteries a niche product for high-end luxury items where you pay much more for a little bit of extra performance.
Next Step: You have batteries that don’t run hot or might explode when damaged anymore? Stop putting them insinde the car but make the battery an integral part of the frame.
And that’s just the theoretical side. The economic reality is that a lot of the benefits of lithium batteries are not based on the tech itself but coming from a decade of experience (and optimizations) in manufacturing. A lot of that experience is partly applicable to alternatives so they will reach a similiar maturity in a fraction of the time (= just a few years).
You can currently get a brand new Chevy Bolt for around $20k.
https://electrek.co/2024/01/03/chevy-bolt-ev-prices-under-20000/
I was able to snag one for 14k if you look around.
That is because economy car buyers figured out that you can buy a used car with all the options, so why buy a new car with less options. In 1970 it made sense to buy a cheap new car as cars back then were so unreliable that a used car was not reliable. These days cars will go a lot longer, so you can buy a nice enough used car and not compromise all the features.