Meanwhile most people: the answer to who is the bad guy is:
Both. Both is good
I support an elected government with secular state thank you
Does a historical claim hold weight over a long established later claim? No-one knows the answer to this one - how old must a claim be before it becomes invalid?
Are restrictive religious laws ok? I think the resounding answer is always “mine are, but theirs aren’t”, which really is just a recipe for war eternal. They never strike me as ok, because most of them focus on making a group of people “the other”.
Is murdering civilians to achieve military objectives ok? No, it isn’t, everyone knows that really - it’s an idea that belongs in the middle ages and should have been left there.
I don’t think I could join the Israel vs Palestine camps (both governments are shit - both are out for genocide), I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
What does everyone who matters (the people living through this hell) really want? They want their lives back, the ability to be themselves, and carry out their traditions undisturbed. Most of all, they want the killing and persecution to stop, and the time to mourn their losses.
How do we do that? Put the guns down, stop the bombardments and bombings, have each side treat the wounded of the other side, and then figure out the rest without starting the killing again.
Hamas isn’t a government, it’s a terrorist group. It’s also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority. There was just an article posted to Lemmy that talked about how Likud (the far right party governing Israel that’s undermined peace talks multiple times) helped fund Hamas.
Oppressed people can’t “put their guns down” because they’re being exterminated. Only the oppressor can stop. If you’re really against both Hamas and Israel, then you believe that Israel needs to stop committing genocide. If you’re pretending “both sides” are equal, then you’re playing the same game Trump said when he equated people waving Nazi and confederate flags witj people trying not to be killed by people waving Nazi and confederate flags by saying “both sides are to blame.”
Pretending oppressed people have as much power as their oppressors is the game oppressors use to perpetuate their oppression.
Hamas isn’t a government, it’s a terrorist group. It’s also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority.
The people of Gaza voted Hamas in, so Hamas is the actual government of Gaza. And also a terrorist organization.
You mean based on the election that happened 17 years ago? Considering the average age in Gaza is 18 it’s pretty likely the people who voted for Hamas aren’t even alive anymore.
You mean based on the election that happened 17 years ago?
Yes.
So you’re holding people accountable for something most of them never even had a say in?
Normally the people here are always saying it’s the obligation of the people to go against their evil government. Why not in this case? How many protests took place in Palestine against Hamas? Or against the violence they used against their own people?
You don’t think the near-permanent humanitarian crisis, half the population being children and Israel still effectively controlling Gaza gives Palestine the exception from the normality? Nothing is normal about Palestine so why should we treat them normally?
Normally the people here are always saying it’s the obligation of the people to go against their evil government.
There’s an evil government right next to the border ready to make their lives hell if they do that, and it’s people don’t give a fuck.
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Or, I’m looking at people rather than nations, which is the correct way to view any conflict.
My argument is that both sides put their guns down, because that’s how a war stops. Both sides treat the injured of the other side, since that is how empathy is built and denial is eliminated. Homes can be rebuilt, and land disagreements can be settled, but nothing will bring the dead back; there are some things that cannot be undone. These are the things we need to stop FIRST.
“POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Motivations for targeting a group are indoctrinated through mass media” ( http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/)
The people of both sides are already doing that. I’m not sure what the proposal is here. In what hospitals would the Palestinians treat the injured of the other side? The ones that are being levelled by the IDF? With what medical supplies? The ones that are denied to them by the IDF? Palestinians are being exterminated. The people of Israel needs to overthrow Likud and hold them accountable. The people of Israel need fight their government to stop this. The Palestinians, for the most part, are also victims of the same thing.
The US needs to stop supporting Likud, and US citizens need to riot until the government listens to them. Everyone needs to stand together to stop governments from doing this, absolutely. But we need to be realistic about who has power and who actually can take action.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. Claiming otherwise is spreading misinformation.
The government of Gaza is currently holding hostages. The government of Israel has said it’s not stopping until those hostages are released.
To claim the Palestinians have no power is spreading misinformation. They absolutely have the power to stop this war.
None of this is to say what Israel’s government is doing is acceptable.
I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
I agree, but it’s also arguably more complicated than this. I follow a DUI lawyer on youtube who happened to be in Israel (and fairly close to a crossfire) when the war started. He gave this very real and very neutral explanation of things those of us outside the region often miss, covering his upbringing in Israel.
Basically, he said, the most common opinion you can hear from either side is “the only good OTHER SIDE is a dead OTHER SIDE”. From the mouths of civilians, from children. They believe it because their parents told them it and because they’ve lived through conflict that corroborates it.
To want peace at all costs, but to still instinctively dehumanize the other side is a very complicated place to be. And you can understand why both sides’ civilians might feel that way about the other. So many people feel a desire for justice, but to both countries, justice is the other side being punished.
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When you describe a group of people as a rabid dog and when you describe mass murderers as having more of a good reason for it, you need to stop and rethink your entire view. Something in your reasoning is just morally broken.
There are plenty of good people. There are plenty of non-combatants in both Palestine and Israel who really wish the violence could end tomorrow, and they really wouldn’t follow it up with other attacks. You know how I know? Because there’s people like that in every country in the world. Of course some people are way into violence, but many other people just want to live their lives. And we all agree that it’s difficult to make that happen.
You wrote that in Palestinian culture many people would happily sacrifice their own life just to kill some Israelis. Surely that’s true for some people. But which is worse, sacrificing your own life to take out an enemy, or sacrificing your friend’s life to take out an enemy? They’re both pretty horrible, and I see no need to go into any further analysis, except to remark that this is where your reasoning leads.
I feel you showed great restraint by not putting reason in inverted commas there.
What’s Israel’s superior justification, and where’s any evidence of restraint beyond keeping things juuuust below the threshold where the US will be forced to withdraw support from it’s regional toehold?
This discussion happened between me and a Zionist just the other day
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
them: “As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?”
I wonder how people like that would treat me if they met me on the public street.
Don’t leave us hanging, what is your answer to their last question?
I’m highly critical of Hamas and have lost many friends over it.
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
What’s the timeline of these events?
Within the same 2 months.
Timeline? Hamas does a terror attack on Oct 7th and kills 1200 people, Israel responds by killing at least 17000 Palestinians over the next 2 months and that’s just the lower end of the estimate.
Exactly. One of these actions caused the other.
Hamas attacking Isreal justifies Isreal attacking Gaza. So the next Hamas attack is then justified because Isreal attacked them? Or does the justification go only one way for you?
Let me expand the timeline for you slightly:
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1948: Israel expels 700,000 Palestinians from their homeland, with the aid of the British empire.
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1948-Oct 6th: Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
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Oct 7th: Hamas terror attack, killing 1200 people. Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
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Oct 8th-now: Israel kills 17000+ Palestinians. Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
You shouldn’t have expected better from @fosforus@sopuli.xyz and I shouldn’t have answered their dumb question either… I should have stopped for a moment and said to myself, “why would anyone ask this question unless to make a hideous point?”
It’s got the same undertone as the “What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?” question. Not whatever you’re doing, that’s for sure!
Both you and @aberrate_junior_beatnik@lemmy.world conveniently left a lot of shitty things the Arabs have done to Israelis during the last 100 years from that summary, most importantly how in 1948 Israel successfully fought a war that all its neighbors started. And then another one in 1967 (although Israel did start that one pre-emptively, with amazing effectiveness). Neither party is a virtuous angel, nobody is in a war.
That’s why we should select who we support based on values and the stated end game scenarios of both these states and peoples. Which is why I’m decisively rooting for Israel and by extension also Palestine, against Hamas, because Israel is by a large margin more aligned to liberalism, other western values and modernity.
Israel is by a large margin more aligned to liberalism
It absolutely isn’t.
It’s like somehow you can’t get it through your thick head that you can’t just rob people of their land and massacre them, otherwise they retaliate.
Framing 1948 as some kind of Israeli victory will go down the dumpster of history in style.
"Israel fights war to successfully ethnically cleanse 700k Palestinians and destroy 500 of their villages, then claims that the Palestinians abandoned their homes, hence making them totally up for grabs. "
Yeah that sounds lovely.
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That’s a very simplistic take for a complex long-term problem that people have been struggling to solve for a very long time.
I am always curious, why does Egypt not want to help Palestinian refugees? Or even allow then to travel through?
Because then in 5 years israel would start attacking and creating “buffer zones” within Egypt until Egypt ceases to exist.
Israel is like the Nazi’s in every single way. They want to keep expanding their lebensraum and genocide everyone who isn’t of their race.
Deplacing the Palestinians would only worsen the problem because they are not the problem, israel is.
Because then in 5 years israel would start attacking and creating “buffer zones” within Egypt until Egypt ceases to exist.
That’s an odd claim. When has Israel claimed Egyptian territory as their historical land?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sinai_Peninsula
They already had settlers on it.
Also they tried to steal Lebanon but got owned by Hezbollah. So they had to give it back.
Israeli ministers are already saying they want to colonize Lebanon and Jordan. They will never stop.
“…and genocide everyone who isn’t of their race…”
What race is that?
Zionists were using that phrase before Israel was even a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea?wprov=sfla1
Me IRL
So you support the displacement of the people of israel?
- Where to?
- Which people? Anyone who is an Israeli citizen?
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Whatever country they come from or to new palestine if that’s not possible.
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Yes, all Israelis
- Hang on, don’t stop. Which countries? And by new palastine do you mean the one controlled by Hamas who have kill all jews and christians in their charter? So basically just kill everyone who is currently living in Israel?
- So all the christian and muslim arabs who are Israeli citizens too. Right? You wouldn’t want to come off as a racist impliying only jews should be displaced would you?
1.The countries they came from. They are Jewish settlers. I.e they came from other countries to settle I’m palestianian land. So they should return to the (mostly European) countries they came from. Or they can join they can emigrate elsewhere if they don’t feel safe lying in the bed they made with how they treated Palestinians.
Just like any other decolonisation effort, the colonisers need to leave or they can stay and try and integrate or face retribution for their colonisation. Are you going to feel bad for British colonisers that got caught and displaced during revolutions in the BE?
- Yes obviously, hence why I spoke about Israel and not about Jews. Its a decolonisation effort, so they either leave to their country of origin, emmegrate elsewhere or becomes citizens of a decolonisation Palestine. You trying to imply I’m being antisemitic just shows you don’t actually care about the issue and are just using usual tactics to try and win an argument on the internet.
So you’re calling for decolonization of all countries in the world? Every person should immigrate back to their country of origin? And how long back is “country of origin” defined? Do you acknowledge that all Jewish people originate from Israel or is that something we need to debate as well?
Obviously not, lots of countries have already been decolonised and most over aren’t colonised in the first place. Or if you argue the toss (which is all you seek to be able to do) they were colonised so long ago that there is no way to actually decolonise them. Like say England.
But if you come down to earth for a moment. Israel was created <100 years ago, and there still exists Palestine and its people that had their land stolen from. Much of which was stolen very recently. Acting like there’s no difference between this situation and every other country is dishonest at best and I’m sure you’re already aware of that.
Now do you actually care about this or a you just trying to win an Internet argument against someone who disagreed with you.
“there still exists Palestine and its people”. No. Before the state of Israel there was the british occupation. Before that the turkish ottoman empire. Before that there was an Egyptian rule and so on and so on. There were wars and the rule of this specific piece of land changed. At no point in history was there ever a Palstinian country. There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago. During all of history there were both jewish and arabs living in Israel. Calling the jewish people of Israel “colonists” is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own. The arabs, instead of accepting the split launched a war in whclich they lost. And yes, many people were evicted from theor homes. Such is war. Then, they had multiple chances to accept peace offerings and build a country, instead they kept rejecting the offers and kept launching attacks at Israel. Culminating with the oct/7 attack which is where we find ourselves today. As i mentioned earlier, you and many around the world would like the Jews to just die. That won’t happen. What you should be doing is making memes about Hamas and how they keep enriching their leaders pockets and building terror infrastructure instead of helping the Palestinian people.
At no point in history was there ever a Palestinian country
Then why did the Brits use the word Palestine?
There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago.
Are you like a disinformation bot??? How do you even suggest to prove this claim???
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You know, when you advantage a hypothetical displacement over an ongoing one, the implicit argument is that Israelis are superior to Palestinians. You’re asking: wouldn’t it be horrible for the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians?
If you think it’s unfair to displace one oppressed people in favor of another, then yea, I agree.
I think it’s unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die because Jihadists are using their own people as human shields. There have been over 7 times where the Palestinian people have had a chance to establish an actual state. They refused each and every time. So I’m struggling to see a parallel between what Israel is doing (defending its people) vs what you are suggesting.
I think it’s unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die
This makes it sound like Israel’s existence depends on the Palestinian people NOT being free
The Palestinian people have had many many options to accept a two state solution and “be free”. But they will never be free because their leaders only want the distruction of Israel and death of all jews. And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
I’m Palestinian, grew up in a Palestinian family, went to lots of protests, “Kill all Jews” is not something people say out or appreciate. The problem is with Zionists, not Jew.
That being said, totally legal to march in Israel and chant “Death to all Arabs”
Ok. I assume you don’t live in Gaza. Because then you’d be learning antisemitism in school: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/eu-study-confirms-incitement-in-palestinian-textbooks
And I assume you don’t go to mosque because then you’d be hearing about gharqad
And probably didn’t attend these protests: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/death-to-the-jews-chants-heard-at-berlin-pro-palestinian-rally/amp/
Yes, antisemitism exists. No, Palestinians as a collective don’t want to kill all Jews. The Israel government on the other hand is adamant to kill every last Palestinian or ethnically cleanse them with forced displacement.
And no, I did not go to those protests, and if I did I would have spoken up about it and not let people chant such bullshit.
And no, I don’t go to mosques, I’m an atheist.
Ah yes and the antisemitism in books claim:
One religious studies textbook asks students to discuss the “repeated attempts by the Jews to kill the prophet” Muhammad and asks who are “other enemies of Islam.”
This is a historical event, regarding specifically the Jewish tribes near Mecca. That being said, fuck Mohammed and fuck Israel just the same.
A math text showed a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots to describe Newton’s second law of motion.
LOL. What is the issue exactly? Doesn’t say “Jews”, says specifically hitting an Israel soldier, as one should when all means of resistance have run out.
Another textbook “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing “Zionist drawings and shapes.”
Yes, good example of antisemitism, haven’t double checked this though and don’t really know what it refers to 🤔 pretty sure Israel ruined all sorts of historical Palestinian sites anyway.
About Dalal Al Maghrebi, yeah, that’s bad, I agree, she should not be hailed as a hero.
