It’s important to be aware of the context of how Muslims are treated in the West. The issue isn’t burning a religious text, it’s that allowing these far-right rituals just fuels the irrational hatred of Muslim people, especially refugees
Yeah, I understand. I didn’t necessarily think of it that was so I rescind my earlier statement. I don’t approve of religion but do understand the issues with these actions
I used to think religion itself was the problem, but becoming a communist has changed my perspective on this. Capitalism creates unjustifiable hierarchies that allow religion to weild immense power within our society. This can be prevented under socialism, turning religion into just another part of our culture.
Don’t you think this type of thinking is reductive? Does it not give credit to those who claim communism doesn’t work because the USSR tried it? It completely ignores the specific material conditions of the time and place.
Excuse me i didn’t wrote a 50 pages dissertation about that, i assumed you know this never happened anywhere where religious organizations had any significant power.
What is REALLY reductive (and also historically proven incorrect) is writing “Capitalism creates unjustifiable hierarchies that allow religion to weild immense power within our society.”* and “This can be prevented under socialism, turning religion into just another part of our culture.”
*EDIT: while theoretically correct, it does that, all systems of class society before did the same, so it’s not sole fault of capitalism. Hell, even socialist countries didn’t liquidated those hierarchies.
My apologies if my comment came of as cententious. I think this is an interesting conversation and I’m interested in learning more and gaining insight into the different the perspectives of other comrades on the topic.
this never happened anywhere where religious organizations had any significant power.
Admitted, I’m pretty niave on the history of both of these, but what are your thoughts on this in relation to Tibet and Xinjiang? In Tibet, they banished the Dalai Lama, but not religious practice. And in Xinjiang, I believe I read there’s more mosques there than anywhere else in the world. It seems education has been the key in reducing religious extremism in the region as opposed to outright banning religion.
Not sure about Xinjiang exactly, but decentralised and autonomous nature of muslim religious authorities usually cause them to not have much political power when under non-muslim government, religious influence in such conditions usually results in what they did, extremist minority.
Tibet is even worse example, now its more or less cooperative, but clergy literally got deposed from power hard, expropriated nearly entirely and since then watched carefully. PRC even directly interfere with their religious hierarchy, look what they did to panchen lama and when current dalai lama dies the tibetan buddhism can very well split because it, which will increase state influence over it. And it’s far from only thing.
I won’t even mention what happened when Falun Gong overstepped.
outright banning religion.
You do know than beween kissing bishop ring and “outright banning religion” there is a lot of other options?
You do know than beween kissing bishop ring and “outright banning religion” there is a lot of other options?
I think this is where our discussion got off track. There’s another thread in here that mentions the distinction between religious institutions and religious practice. I’m certainly in favour of placing heavy restrictions on religious institutions. I think we need to be open minded when it comes to allowing others the right to their religious practice.
Yes, and the limits installed have to be carefully devised. In this case you say you can’t burn a Muslim holy text. Can I burn a Jewish one, Buddhist? What if Heinlein is my religion and someone burns a stranger in a strange land, is it the same, different? How so?
As I said in my original comment, consider the context. There is no noteworthy discrimination against followers of Heinlein, if such people exist, and as far as I know it’s not a religion recognized by any country. There is extreme discrimination against Muslims in the West. There’s also discrimination against Jews. For Buddhists, it would likely be less of a problem since it’s not a prominent religion in the West, but it could also lead to further escalation.
Even if we analyze this without context, what kind of expression is the state silencing by not allowing public book burning? We’re not talking about someone burning a Quran in their home, where nobody else can see it. Do you believe it should be legal to stand in a public place and shout ethnic slurs into a megaphone?
It’s important to be aware of the context of how Muslims are treated in the West. The issue isn’t burning a religious text, it’s that allowing these far-right rituals just fuels the irrational hatred of Muslim people, especially refugees
Yeah, I understand. I didn’t necessarily think of it that was so I rescind my earlier statement. I don’t approve of religion but do understand the issues with these actions
I used to think religion itself was the problem, but becoming a communist has changed my perspective on this. Capitalism creates unjustifiable hierarchies that allow religion to weild immense power within our society. This can be prevented under socialism, turning religion into just another part of our culture.
You know who tried? Socialist Poland for example.
Don’t you think this type of thinking is reductive? Does it not give credit to those who claim communism doesn’t work because the USSR tried it? It completely ignores the specific material conditions of the time and place.
Excuse me i didn’t wrote a 50 pages dissertation about that, i assumed you know this never happened anywhere where religious organizations had any significant power.
What is REALLY reductive (and also historically proven incorrect) is writing “Capitalism creates unjustifiable hierarchies that allow religion to weild immense power within our society.”* and “This can be prevented under socialism, turning religion into just another part of our culture.”
*EDIT: while theoretically correct, it does that, all systems of class society before did the same, so it’s not sole fault of capitalism. Hell, even socialist countries didn’t liquidated those hierarchies.
My apologies if my comment came of as cententious. I think this is an interesting conversation and I’m interested in learning more and gaining insight into the different the perspectives of other comrades on the topic.
Admitted, I’m pretty niave on the history of both of these, but what are your thoughts on this in relation to Tibet and Xinjiang? In Tibet, they banished the Dalai Lama, but not religious practice. And in Xinjiang, I believe I read there’s more mosques there than anywhere else in the world. It seems education has been the key in reducing religious extremism in the region as opposed to outright banning religion.
Not sure about Xinjiang exactly, but decentralised and autonomous nature of muslim religious authorities usually cause them to not have much political power when under non-muslim government, religious influence in such conditions usually results in what they did, extremist minority.
Tibet is even worse example, now its more or less cooperative, but clergy literally got deposed from power hard, expropriated nearly entirely and since then watched carefully. PRC even directly interfere with their religious hierarchy, look what they did to panchen lama and when current dalai lama dies the tibetan buddhism can very well split because it, which will increase state influence over it. And it’s far from only thing.
I won’t even mention what happened when Falun Gong overstepped.
You do know than beween kissing bishop ring and “outright banning religion” there is a lot of other options?
I think this is where our discussion got off track. There’s another thread in here that mentions the distinction between religious institutions and religious practice. I’m certainly in favour of placing heavy restrictions on religious institutions. I think we need to be open minded when it comes to allowing others the right to their religious practice.
That’s a slippery slope boss banning expression always is.
complete freedom of expression doesn’t exist anywhere, there are always limits and some are more reasonable than others
Yes, and the limits installed have to be carefully devised. In this case you say you can’t burn a Muslim holy text. Can I burn a Jewish one, Buddhist? What if Heinlein is my religion and someone burns a stranger in a strange land, is it the same, different? How so?
As I said in my original comment, consider the context. There is no noteworthy discrimination against followers of Heinlein, if such people exist, and as far as I know it’s not a religion recognized by any country. There is extreme discrimination against Muslims in the West. There’s also discrimination against Jews. For Buddhists, it would likely be less of a problem since it’s not a prominent religion in the West, but it could also lead to further escalation.
Even if we analyze this without context, what kind of expression is the state silencing by not allowing public book burning? We’re not talking about someone burning a Quran in their home, where nobody else can see it. Do you believe it should be legal to stand in a public place and shout ethnic slurs into a megaphone?