I guess not strictly news - but with all of the vitriol I have seen in discussions on the Israel situation, that have boiled down to arguments over wording, I feel that this take from the BBC is worthy of some discussion.
Mods, feel free to remove if this is not newsy enough.
As is appropriate for journalism.
There’s a reason every country that bitches about the BBC also gets accused of being far right authoritarians…
BBC calls them out, but pulls just short of saying it. And there’s nothing far right authoritarians hate more than someone calmly telling the world exactly what they want. If we flat out called them nazis, they’d argue they’re not technically nazis they’re sparkling fascists.
Champugnent
The only people the BBC have ever called Nazis are the actual Nazis, because they called themselves Nazis. So fair enough.
I’m really sorry, but in case of Armenia, Artsakh and Azerbaijan BBC has been extremely pro-Azeri for many years, all the way to using Azeri place names which literally were invented 30 years ago when they were attempting (then unsuccessfully, now successfully) to depopulate those places.
Now they seem to have made a 180 degree turn (still using Azeri place names, though), but that can be explained by there no longer being Armenians in Artsakh, so lying is no longer that necessary.
Now, about nazis and Azerbaijan … you comment seems asinine in that context.
Bullshit. They’ve used the word ‘terrorist’ for every other attack in the past two decades (9/11, London Bridge, Manchester Arena, 7/7, etc.). Was that not ‘choosing sides’ then?
They just can’t admit that the UK fucked up and condemn Israel because the lawyers told them not to
Here is an article that doesn’t refer to it as “terrorism”:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40008389
The articles I have seen that refer to it as terrorism, tend to be from local BBC services, rather than the national one.
No its not, they are legally considered terrorists and are on the same list as ISIS or the Taliban.
Whose law?
UK Parliament added Hamas on the list of proscribed terrorist organizations in 2021. Press release here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/islamist-terrorist-group-hamas-banned-in-the-uk
The EU have them listed as well (didn’t bother checking since when).
The US has listed them since 1997 (US Department of Treasury Office of Foreign Asset Control is the agency in charge of sanctions enforcement).
So yeah.
Legally.
For better or (and very clearly) for worse, Hamas has been the government in Palestinian since 2006.
Either laws and governments matter, or they don’t.
You don’t get to have it both ways.
No theyre not.
The Palestinian Authority is in charge of the West Bank and Hamas is “in charge” of Gaza (even tho Israel controls everything).
If you think Hamas is the government of Palestine, it actually makes sense. Israel loves pretending that’s true in the media. And probably the only reason they haven’t done anything about Hamas despite controlling every aspect of life in Gaza
You didn’t have to give me a link showing me I’m right…
But you could edit your original comment now that you know.
Hamas absolutely controls Gaza with an iron fist. Everything from schools, to infrastructure, to daily life, to the electoral process.
You asked by whose law they are defined as terrorists. You got your answer: UK law, EU law, US law.
The BBC answers to UK law at the end of the day, not Gazan law, not US law, and not your law.
Actually no, the role of journalism isn’t just to parrot and re-express the views of the current government from where they are based.
I agree they shouldn’t parrot the views of the UK government blindly. But the BBC are not above the law. Stop that nonsense.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. They organize and commit acts of intentional violence against civilians with the express purpose of spreading terror.
Calling them anything else other than that is a disservice to the readers of the BBC and implicitly condones their actions by not labelling them as such.
Was the Nazi party of Nazi Germany a terrorist organization when Germany invaded Poland?
And the BBC will report the fact that Hamas has been designated a terrorist group by those bodies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups
Look after Hamas, basically everyone considers them terrorists.
Wikipedia is a lawmaking body?
I think you are missing the point.
Ah yes of course, someone links a source with a list of what you just asked and now you complain that the one making the list doesn’t make the law…
Are you insane?
Law is not some immutable force. Many countries have laws.
In some of those countries, Hamas is a designated terrorist organization. In others, it is not, and even considered and ally (or has been previously, such as Afghanistan, Algeria, Iran, Qatar, Syria).
Hamas its self is a government. They have their own laws. So whose laws should we defer to?
The point is that who is or isn’t a terrorist depends on the context and point of view you are speaking from.
There is no universality in that kind of word, and so its appropriate that the BBC isn’t using it.
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I get the emotionalism behind this moment. But words matter. This was a state sponsored effort.
If there is any delineation between a terrorist act and state violence, it should be the existence of a state.
A state exists, Palestine. This was a state action, not a terrorist action. It was an act of open war, but not an act of terrorism. That’s a different thing.
Definitions and words matter. It can’t be “Everything I hate is terrorism”. Look at how the American right has done this with the word ‘fascism’ (largely to obscure their clearly fascistic approaches).
What Hamas did was not an act of terrorism. They have done that previously. This was an act of war.
So how far did you get in this article? Did you see the title and go into rage posting or did you actually read it?
This dude writes 50 comments a day on multiple accounts. From what I’ve seen they are completely filled with hatred and spitefulness and their personal conviction is more important than deliberation or compassion. It must be exhausting.
The UN doesn’t, according to your own source.
Critically, though, not the U.N. I linked to the same thing above before I saw your comment but came to a different conclusion. I personally call them terrorists but I’m not a journalist trying to be impartial on a global network. I think it’s fine for the BBC to just say which countries do label them terrorists without taking a side.
Kinda weird that New Zealand takes the time to differentiate calling the political arm of Hamas not terrorists and the militant arm of Hamas (Qassam Brigades) terrorists. Maybe someone should look into why.
The well known phrase is “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”. I Imagine from their point of view, Israel is the ‘terrorist’ group, routinely bombing apartment buildings etc and that their actions are a proportionate counter (recent events nonwithstanding!)
Both sides of the current conflict have/are committing atrocities, but the reporting of those atrocities should be as factual and unbiased as possible.
The best way I’ve heard it described is that they both view the other group of people as existential evil. Far beyond enemies, something which is evil just for existing. Not just the militaries, but the nation, race, state, religion, whatever classification. With that viewpoint, any action you take can be justified. Just as nobody would think twice about killing a million mosquito larvae in a country that has thousands die from malaria, killing a few thousand of the other side is morally neutral at worst.
This is going to continue to be horrific for a while.
The freedom fighters that behead babies, rape woman and abduct people… Oh and also rocketstrike civilians in general…
If you believe in their “freedom” feel free to go there.
So do you call the Israeli army terrorists? Because they’ve done all of those things to an even greater extent than Hamas has.
You know, they BOTH do that shit, right? It’s important that you know this.
How do you feel about the US military?
The military prosecuted and convicted the leader who ordered the killings, so implying the US military condones these actions is really stupid
Regardless of the wrist-slap the criminal President gave him, he was convicted. There is no legal recourse after a Presidential commutation.
My Lai was not an isolated incident.
Only one involved was convicted as stated, but then completely let off so who cares? The higher ups that enabled it were completely let off. Others who were involved in the cover up completely let off. The whistleblowers, etc were shunned and ostracized by the military for decades.
Being that is invalidates the point you were making, you should care.
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…whataboutism sucks. Regardless if it’s true.
But complaining about whataboutism while you ignore the problem everytime somoeone powerfull or ally does sucks the same. A war of suckers.
But redirecting attention away from the topic being discussed just so you can whine about someone else doing the same makes it appear as if you’re justifying it so long as someone else does it.
Stop doing this. It’s juvenile and muddies the water. You want to discuss how shitty America is, do it in its own post where that can be discussed in full. Here, it doesn’t belong.
I’m not trying to do that, I’m trying to understand how to international interests interact with the war, if you really want to understand international conflicts you should do this all the time.
Saying “Hammas bad” is much more juvenile, and is equivalent of saying “fart” for the discussion
Excellent
And while you have every right to your opinion, your opinion isn’t a newsworthy or relevant fact.
Journalists should never label a group of people with an adjective. It’s Journalism 101. Your writing should be free of personal bias and report the facts and quoted statements. No assumptions are allowed.
Lmao what? Terrorists isn’t a adjective. And its not a personal bias its a fact https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups
Alright, buddy… quit while you’re behind.
“Hamas is a terrorist organization”. Help me spot the adjective there, cowboy.
It is an adjective.
“terrorist” is an adjective.
Sorry that my source did not invent the usage, the word or language itself.
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They have the right to call them whatever they want, that doesn’t make it correct.
Neither does your opinion
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Lmao, you’re seriously linking to a deleted comment to try to make your case?
Laws are, by definition, a legal opinion— which can be overturned, by the way, by another legal opinion. The only fact here is that it is, is some jurisdiction, a law.
That just is not the point. I mean, if you are involved in the conflict you can totally believe in anything, but the point is in the moment you call them terrorist and call it a day you lost any possibility to analyze the situation and understand WTF is happening and why.
BBC is not saying they are NOT terrorists, but it does not matter in this context.
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The U.S., U.K., E.U., and others designate them as a terrorist group but the U.N. does not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups
The reality is that they’re the militant faction of the de facto government of a quasi-state under Israeli occupation. It is complicated so the BBC just says who thinks they’re a terrorist group. That seems reasonable for journalists striving to be neutral.
“Everybody wants to occupy ‘the holy land’ and everyone who is taking part of that sucks”
While Israel has been basically a terrorist state, attacking Palestinians nonchalant, bombing civilian districts, and Hamas has grown in number, also basically being a terrorist state (the iron dome exists for a reason), it feels like we are forgetting that this whole argument comes down to religious rights. The argument will never end. The conflict will never end. Both groups are thumping their book claiming it’s their land. The war will go on for centuries until there’s nothing left to claim. That’s how religious war works, unless some other great motivator stops it.
The US is older than Israel. My grandfather is older than Israel and he’s still alive. There was no state of Israel in 1920 and the Jewish population in the region was ~11%. This hasn’t been going on for centuries. It’s been going on for century.
The Crusades, the Ottoman Empire, thankfully those only lasted a century and that’s when we determined who got what.
Yes I’m sure that since they didn’t have it before, they wouldn’t try to have it again. My point is not about nations that rise and fall. It’s that they will continue to rise and fall for this holy war on what they consider to be “their land”
Are you really sure that without US intervention, and the nation of Israel starting, there wouldn’t be orthodox Jewish terrorists on the other side of the border claiming it was “their land?”
Those claiming it’s “their land” will continue to fight, until everyone is dead. That’s my point.
It’s pretty ballsy to start using an alt with the same name as the last account you got banned under…
How long you think this one will last?
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Nope.
You’re banned from all of lemmy.world
https://lemmy.world/u/CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works
And admittedly using a bunch of alts to circumvent it and keep posting the bullshit that got you banned.
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What?!
It literally says “banned” in big red letters right there on the link…
https://lemmy.world/u/CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works
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https://lemmy.world/u/CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works
Did you click the link yet?
Did you see the big red letters that say “banned” at the top?
There’s nothing in the mod log because you weren’t banned from this community, you were banned from every community on lemmy.world by the instance admins.
You want to prove me wrong? Sign in to that account and comment fucking anywhere in this thread.
What list is this?
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Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare