- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
Like basic respect for others?
Yeah, this is just not true. Unlike those who are actually marginalized, these people say nasty shit and claim that being called a dickhead for it is a violation of their freedom of speech. The reality is that they actually want some sort of immunity to backlash for their own words and actions, effectively limiting other people’s freedom of expression.
If everyone can say nasty shit, freedom of expression is guaranteed to everybody. I think that basic respect for others is advisable and being friendly goes a long way but I still want to have the possibility to say nasty shit, if a polite feedback is not enough to state my point. Or even for humorous purposes, if that is what I want.
You misunderstand what I am saying: They are mostly (save where hate speech laws apply) allowed to say nasty stuff. They just do not enjoy the privilege of everyone else shutting up about it. I.e., other people react to it and say unkind, possibly nasty stuff back, which the original people in question get butt hurt by and subsequently whine about “the woke mob cancelling them”.
It does not stop to being called out for a wrong pronoun. The consequences for using words not approved by the woke mob can be very real, like losing a job and being effectively cancelled. When interacting with a transsexual person, I address said person by the pronouns that match the sex that they purport to show off. Doing otherwise would be impolite. On a serious note, though, a man who underwent procedures to appear as a woman is not a woman: said person is still a man who underwent procedures to appear as a woman. The woke mob wants me to affirm that a transsexual woman is, in fact, a real woman. I will not say that. I would be a lying. I tend to pursue truth. Truth does not care about people’s feelings.
Ok. Seems to me that you just want a free pass at being an ass.
She is a real woman even though she does not conform to your expectations of what gender is. Here is the thing though: She does not need your affirmation to
What reason do you have to claim that she is not a “real woman” (whatever that means, I can guarantee that it is not well defined)? Most importantly, if she feels like a woman, even if you disagree on some metaphysical level of nonsense of what is a woman, why would you have the need to tell her what you think? Lastly, why do you think your opinion about her body is important?
Much of what you are claiming is not grounded in truth, but I tend to pursue truth. Transsexual “women” fail to meet one basic requirement to be considered women: they are not female. A woman is an adult human female. I can guarantee that this word is well defined. Look it up on a dictionary, if you do not believe me. People can make statements about themselves that are untrue, but it is up to me if I want to keep up with their perception of themselves. They need not care about what I say the same way I do not want a law in place that forces me to keep up with their different perception of themselves. In parts of North America you can face harsh penalties for “misgendering”. When the left stretches things up to the point you can face legal consequences for truthful speech, we digress into totalitarianism.
Ok.
This is not at all what totalitarianism means, look it up in a dictionary or something.
From Dictionary.com: exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others (emphasis mine).
Look up intersex people and marvel at how loose the definition of being female is. People are born without a womb, mixed genitalia, any combination you can imagine. They’re still considered women. If one can get to such a state, or further, they should too.
Look up the various studies performed on transgender patients showing how their brain is more aligned to that of females (or males, whichever way they swing), at a biological level.
Look up how hormonal imbalances during pregnancy can cause such discrepancies. It’s not just a psychological thing, it’s a biological phenomenon that does appear in nature.
Or don’t. You’re free to remain ignorant, just like you’re free to say whatever you like, but don’t act like the victim when you knowingly say something that’s considered out of line and face consequences.
Facing consequences for your actions is nothing new, don’t act like it is. Work places and public spaces have had rules of conduct since the dawn of time; what is considered acceptable has shifted as society evolved. You may not like it, but that’s not going to change just because calling someone by their chosen name makes you uncomfortable. Would you consider being disallowed to call black people slurs totalitarianism?
You are free to say whatever you want, just like people and employers are free to not want to associate with you for the things you say.
Less than six hundred intersex people are known to have ever existed. It is an extremely rare occurrence. There is no single human being known to have both reproductive organs in a fertile state. Fertile intersex people can have at most one reproductive organ that can generate offspring. Truly bisexual living beings have been observed in the animal kingdom: amphibians, molluscs and reptiles, but no human case is known to science. Moreover, most of the few intersex people known to have ever existed show physical and mental features that belong to one of two sexes. Contrary to popular belief, such people are mostly not some sort of hermaphrodites. They look and think as either men or women. Human beings are born either male or female and even if some rare occurrences exist, that tells us that something went wrong during pregnancy. For example, human beings are born with four limbs, but sometimes, something goes wrong and a baby with three limbs is born. This rare occurrence does not invalidate the fact that human beings have four limbs just like the fact that human beings are born either male or female.
In my country you can face consequences for calling racial slurs at a societal level or in specific settings, such as the workplace, but there is no law in place that directly tackles hate speech. In public, yelling racial slurs may upset someone and you can face consequences from people who oppose your manners, though in general no legal penalty can be levied for such behavior. I think this is the way it is supposed to be. It is a free country, after all. If people do not like you, society at large may isolate you. I do not want a government to take control of my mouth with laws limiting free speech the way they are doing in some parts of North America.
As I stated in a previous comment, when interacting with a transsexual person, I address said person by the pronouns that match the “gender” that they purport to show off. That is, when dealing with a man who transitioned to look like a woman, I use feminine declensions. I believe that doing otherwise would be impolite. I think that basic respect for others is advisable and being friendly goes a long way but I still want to have the possibility to say nasty things, if a polite feedback is not enough to state my point - or even for humorous purposes, if that is what I want.
The issue at stake is not to address men who appear as women or women who appear as men with the desired pronouns. This ideology is stretching things as far as making up an “inclusive” grammar with invented pronouns. My native language is highly inflected - we have nouns that are either feminine or masculine. Here we have marginalized left-wing organizations promoting a made up grammar that is so convoluted that even those who promote it can not manage to get acquainted with it. I do not dream of a government prescribing me to remember a made-up pronoun to refer to a specific person. There are laws in place that prevent the hiring process to selectively hire on the basis of sex and ethnicity, yet these groups are striving to push “diversity” at all costs, sometimes not on the basis of merit, but because they want spaces that look less heterosexual and less white.
We do not know yet if this unfortunate societal shift is going to reverse. History has taught us that reversal is possible. I am an outspoken opponent of this whole woke ideology and there are sensible like-minded people out there who oppose this American-born ideology.
You… you didn’t seriously believe I was thinking of human hermaphrodites when talking about intersex people, did you…? -_-
There are FAR more intersex people than 600. It is estimated than 1.5% to 2% of the world’s population is born intersex, to varying degrees.
Now, about laws targeted at protecting marginalized communities:
They mostly focus on businesses, forbidding them from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity and the like. That is it.
There are penal consequences for citizens when it comes to hate speech, but those only apply when such remarks incite violence against individuals, or result in extremely negative outcomes, like suicide.
No one’s gonna arrest you for calling someone a slur on the street. Jails would be full if that were the case.
This is once again an overreaction to make it appear like people are out to get you.
Languages evolve.
I am familiar with the perils of gendered languages, being a speaker of one myself. They can be adapted, it undoubtedly takes effort.
Nobody in their right mind is arguing in favour of supporting every single made up pronoun. I myself am not a fan of neopronouns, some of them are pure madness in my opinion, but a simple they/them can be incorporated into a language. I’ve seen and heard languages being butchered in worse ways, and at least this one is useful. We can leave those who want to be referred to with “starself”, whatever that’s supposed to mean, to worry about explaining everything to everyone they know, to themselves. It would be utterly inpractical to appease everyone, but they/them is manageable.
You kinda gave yourself away if you have an issue with that. I agree that people should be hired on the base of expertise, not ethnicity or identity, but a more diverse environment is not just some whimsical idea “the woke mob” came up with. It fosters exchange of ideas, societal acceptance, and generally improves work environments for everyone who isn’t xenophobic, all things that are generally desirable in a well integrated society.
The “woke mob”, " woke ideology " or whatever you want to call it doesn’t exist. It is an invention of right wing groups to categorise everything they don’t like with, which in most cases just boils down to being decent human beings and not spreading hate. There are zealots, there’s no denying it, but if you just log off of social media and actually get out, you’ll find that no one is after you, no one is implementing all those crazy ideas an extremely small but vocal minority comes up with. So go live your life and relax. The woke mob won’t get you, Italian will still be the same language as it is now, and you’ll still be able to cuss at anyone you don’t like. You’ll be fine.