Like many, when the recent defederation went down, I decided to create a couple other logins and see what the wider fediverse has had to say about it.
I’ve been, honestly, a bit surprised by the response. A huge portion of people seem to be misidentifying communities as belonging to “lemmy” as opposed to the instances that host them. I think a big portion of this seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what this software is, and how it works.
For example, lemmy.world users are pissed at being de-federated because it excludes them from Beehaw communities. This outrage seems wholly placed in the concept that Beehaw’s communities are “owned” by the wider fediverse. This is blatantly not how lemmy works. Each instance hosts a copy of federated instances’ content for their users to peruse. The host (Beehaw in this example) remains being the source of truth for these communities. As the source of truth, Beehaw “owns” the affected communities, and it seems people have not realized that.
This also has wider implications for why one might want to de-federate with a wider array of instances. Lets say I have a server in a location that legally prohibits a certain type of pornography. If my users subscribe to other instances/communities that allow that illegal pornography, I (the server admin) may find myself in legal jeopardy because my instance now holds a copy of that content for my users.
Please keep this in mind as you enjoy your time using Lemmy. The decisions that you make affect the wider instance. As you travel the fediverse, please do so with the understanding that your interactions reflect this instance. More than anything, how can we spread this knowledge to a wider audience? How can we make the fediverse and how it works less confusing to people who aren’t going to read technical documentation?
People don’t dislike defederation because they misunderstand it. They dislike it because it’s a bad user experience. It sucks to effectively get banned from a bunch of major communities through no fault of your own. It’s a flawed system. I don’t know what a good solution would be, but it’s definitely an issue.
I guess one solution is to encourage users to join servers that are as small as possible, to reduce the chance of getting blocked. But that approach comes with its own set of downsides too.
Brand new to lemmy, but this is my take as well. The first account I created was on lemmy.world and then I had to create another to come here. Imagine if Verizon ‘defederated’ from T-Mobile because of a few bad actors.
The problems are real, but the solutions Lemmy currently seems to offer are going to stifle it’s growth before it can truly go big. I can deal with it, but as it currently stands I could never get my friends to join and even if they did, a defederation event happening would kill the concept dead for my more casual friends.
Imagine if Verizon ‘defederated’ from T-Mobile because of a few bad actors.
happens with email servers all the time
It’s just like when email blew up. Email is a federated system as well. These are basically the same arguments I was hearing in the late 80s, early 90s about email. It’s too confusing, nobody will ever use it.
Most servers did zero authentication for incoming emails. When spammers suddenly struck huge ip blocks were banned including innocent bystanders. Any “home” machine was often port blocked from running a mail server.
They developed tools and techniques to mitigate problems and now nobody cares where your email is.
The tools for this area known and the devs are working on it. Early adopters experience some friction.
Yeah, and the user experience matters a lot right now. The reddit blackout is the best chance for rapid Lemmy/fediverse growth, so giving the best user experience right now is critical. Users who are new to the fediverse are already confused by the multiple instances, adding in extra conditions like “don’t join these communities because you can’t interact with this community” adds an extra level of complexity and makes the fediverse seem fractured and flawed as a first impression.
Beehaw’s decision to defiderate may have been the best short-term decision for them, but I feel like it’s a terrible decision for the rest of the fediverse and will hurt growth.
I’m torn on defederation. In theory I like it; a user can join an instance that moderates to the level that they agree with. Beehaw is a pretty good example of this because a lot of users like having a slightly more restrictive community in order to maintain a certain vibe.
But there is a more pragmatic side of me that thinks that the average user isn’t super informed about this stuff, and are naturally going to gravitate to the larger instances. No doubt there were more trolls coming from lemmy.world, but there are far more regular users that have no idea what’s going on.
I think Beehaw’s decision is understandable though, especially given the lack of moderation tools. They’ve already mentioned that they are willing to (re?)federate in the future when trolls/bots are easier to deal with.
I think that this can easily be mitigated by the addition of transferable user profiles. Because the easier it is to hop off of a server and move to another, the better. You lose those communities in the event of a split, but then you desire new ones on your new instance and go join them. It would heal the UX much faster.
Like other users, I expect this will largely become a rarer and rarer occurrence as moderation levels out. We’re very early in the game still.
One thing I haven’t seen talked about is the benefit of this defederation. When beehaw defederated, what happened immediately? A lot of noise was made. The mods got in contact and opened dialog. Communities desired federation. While that’s interpreted as entitlement, I think it’s possible beneficial to keep the number of defederation events low and only done when necessary.
Hard agree. It’s the instability of the user experience that really sucks here.
I do think this kind of thing may solve itself given more time. Instances will establish reputations and their behavior will become more predictable and dependable over time. Right now, users basically have to gamble when joining an instance, or be willing to juggle multiple accounts.
I’d assume it’s better to stay away from small instances though, unless you know the owner. Small instances are very vulnerable. Who knows if that owner will keep maintaining the instance? If it disappears, so does your account.
It will take more time to establish norms. Other instances will certainly defederate and folks will become more accustomed to what that defederation means.
Instances are very vulnerable right now. There’s not much ability to trust or predict how the owners of your instance will behave, because there isn’t a long history of past behavior to look back on, so understandably some users will be frustrated by the lack of stability.
I do see one huge issue with how people are being instructed to join lemmy, which is that most resources tell people it doesn’t matter which instance they join. That becomes fundamentally untrue with defederation.
The problem is that even the official lemmy documentation heavily implies that it doesn’t matter which instance you join because “you’ll still be able to interact with communities on other instances.”
I’ve been enjoying my time here, but there are some very valid concerns about how the current model of federation will impact Lemmy’s ability to ever really be an alternative to other social media- the obvious one here being Reddit. The Beehaw defederation really shows part of the problem here, because multiple of the largest communities that I see on Lemmy are hosted there. Yes, users on lemmy.world COULD make their own versions of those, but three days ago they already existed, were already being interacted with by hundreds of people in lemmy.world, and those communities are just… gone. Thanos snapped away from people on lemmy.world, who will understandably feel kinda miffed.
This is a bad take because you used the most extreme example of why defederation is a practical necessity to justify a significantly less serious issue. I personally would want the bar to be much higher for this kind of thing.
I also don’t “misunderstand” anything here. I just strongly disagree with the decision. What’s next, beehaw gets upset that other instances allow downvoting?
Hi, Beehaw user here. You can downvote me all you want and they’ll never appear on my instance so that won’t be an issue. I could be sitting at -50 on your instance and it’ll always appear as 1 on mine.
Honestly though, I’m a big fan of the defederation decision (at least for now). It’s only a temporary measure until Lemmy gets more powerful mod tools and then they’ll refederate when they can more easily moderate the trolls and bad actors. This is one of the features of the fediverse, got an instance that’s producing a large amount of trolls? Not anymore! Insta-community clean. The only people I’ve ran across that don’t like it are normally the people that end up getting banned tbh.
Edit: For reference to the vote scores, on Beehaw this is currently sitting at 44 upvotes for me. If anybody is viewing from an instance with downvotes, that’s how it appears for Beehaw users.
Personally, I think there is way too much overreaction to the defederations. I agree with admins’ reasons, and it is clear that the minute there are sufficient moderation tools available, that the impacted servers will be re-federated.
The pressure is now on the developers to start pushing more iterative moderation tools - something that wasn’t a priority before Reddit decided to implode, and now looks like it needs to be reprioritized. This is a project/project management issue.
The problem isn’t the decision to defederate, it’s that the only solution to handle bad actors is binary. It’s like shaving your head because you have over-dried out hair, when you’d rather just cut the split ends.
I am willing to be patient because I see Lemmy as a long-term engagement. I’ve been off Reddit since the AMA and haven’t had any desire to go back. I’d rather invest the time here and show the devs that prioritizing more iterative mod tools is a good ROI for them.
…before Reddit decided to implode…
I like this choice of words. The wounds suffered by reddit are aggressively self-inflicted.
Completely agree, I don’t like that defederation is the only tool but glad that it’s there at least. Looking forward to when those more powerful tools can be developed for the mods but this works as a bandaid for now.
The only interaction I’ve had with Reddit is going through my saved posts and bringing over to Lemmy what I think is worth it. Next up is deleting the account and editing all the comments.
“Community organizers keep promises about their community management goals. Outrage ensues.”
You clearly misunderstand the decision to defederate if that’s your counterexample. It wasn’t about beehaw “disliking a thing other serves do” it was about unjustified moderation time, a lack of mod tools, and a worsening of the community values that were trying to be achieved.
I recommend if you’re interested, reading the community philosophy on beehaw to better understand why trolls in the space warrant quick action.
Nice slippery slope fallacy. Try arguing in bad faith somewhere else.
This isn’t a slippery slope or bad faith comment. Sit down and be quiet.
I do not think that anyone “likes” de-federation. In the end though people coming in from other nodes are guests in our forums. We do not have to put up with bad behavior. Moreover instances that allow their users to engage in this bad behavior take some responsibility too. They are your users after all. So if your instance gets banned look to your instances users, and also the admins and their policies that allow those users on that node. Do not under estimate the troll problem. Moderation is required and if it cannot be done effectively then other actions have to be taken like de-federation.
Then again, your coming from lemmy.ml and are not de-federated so why do you care. It is also a bit rich when lemmy.ml has not accepting subscriptions from behaw since I joined. Maybe you should complain about that too.
Then again, your coming from lemmy.ml and are not de-federated so why do you care.
This is a terrible argument, in any case.
Maybe a better one is that lemmy.ml has not been accepting subscriptions for some time. It also has it’s own block list in terms of federation: https://lemmy.ml/instances too. Most instances will not federate with everyone and will block some to protect their communities. It is just a fact.
As I said, I do not think it is a desirable thing in general and it is disruptive when transitioning to blocked but it is from time to time necessary. The necessity has to be jugged from the point of view of the instance making the decision and their admins. So projecting some other set of concerns onto it is kind of questionable. It is even more questionable when your instance is doing similar things and worse when users from your instance were the ones causing the issue to start with.
So for newcomers to the fediverse (also, hi!), mastodon has gone through debates and events too. People my differ on this, but I think the whole phenomenon is just a part of the fediverse and that it’s fundamentally a good thing.
Where it causes drama or friction, I think it is essentially a different kind of friction compared to what happens on big-social platforms. And while it can have its problems or be mishandled, the problems, IMO, reflect real-life social dynamics more, and are therefore healthier than being subject to and at the whims of big-corporate overlords with many more interests other than true cultural and human engagement and interaction. Sometimes, people and whole groups of people just don’t want to know each other. Free-speech and political discourse ideals aren’t the catch all analysis here. This isn’t the news papers or an academic journal, it’s social media.
Bubbles are problematic but so are firehoses and incessantly unpleasant social interactions … grouping and excluding is what we do … it helps to match our finite minds and lives to the magnitudes of reality.
Beyond this, I think many are just not accustomed to real-life human dynamics playing a more structural role in their major social media life. There’s an adjustment that needs to happen. And this goes both ways, for those against and those in defence of defederation actions, where attacks on defederation may miss the point and defenders may not see that there are sometimes better ways to manage problems.
Many of the attacks of defederation are along the lines of “this will stifle growth”. I get it, and I’ve said the same myself elsewhere. But, one, not long ago no one thought any of this would “grow” and yet here we are, so maybe save the prognostications and try more substantial and constructive critiques. And, two, much of the above about transitioning to different modes of online socialising necessitates friction, where the fediverse is not simply your substitute for big-social waiting for the special moment you decide big corporations have crossed your line, rather, it’s a different system, problems and all. Now, by all means, critique the fediverse (I sure do), but, I would recommend doing so with some of the above as part of your frame of reference.
For my money, the biggest problem right now is account mobility. Your account is stuck and limited to an instance. Mastodon has migrations but it’s really just importing your settings and followers to a new account on a new instance rather than truly moving your account to a new host. This is baked into the current structure of the fediverse. Instances are first-class citizens, users are second-class. It is truly accurate, though somewhat pejorative, to use “feudal-verse” instead, because that is actually what it really is.
In terms of defederation, the problem this causes is that you can find yourself at odds with the federation policies of your instance and want to leave, which is obviously a PITA. More deeply, it’s hard to know the federation policies of an instance before you join, or how they’ll respond to some situations, so events like beehaw can be a little “shocking”, and sometimes hurtful, because you find yourself labelled by your instance when you in reality have little alignment it, at least on the matter at hand.
Thing is, belonging to an instance or a community of some sort, finding a “home” of sorts with a group of other people, is probably a good thing, in line with my comments about healthier and more “in real life” dynamics. The issue is that instances and us being forced to join them is somewhat arbitrary, and once you end up having multiple accounts, just a PITA and ultimately bad UX.
What the fediverse really needs, IMO, is both grouping/community mechanisms and for our accounts and their hosting to be decoupled from these groups/communities.
Lemmy/kbin and the threadiverse as a whole do well in this regard by having sub-reddit/forum like structures. Mastodon and the microblogs struggle as they are quite bad at communities (as the BIPOC communities found out it seems). But, as it stands, the threadiverse still couples community hosting with account hosting, and so we have the beehaw defederation issue (which I should say is interesting to see as communities or reddit-like structures haven’t been popular on the fediverse until now-ish).
Technologically, my suspicion is that this whole fediverse thing goes to another level once a coherent protocol provides for optional independence between account hosting and community hosting and, arguably, independence between the prior two and platform format. We have “self-hosting”, but at the moment it’s a bit of a hack, still binds you to platforms and hardly provided as a convenient service (check out Spacehost, an upcoming service for this: https://spacehost.one/).
I wonder about self-hosting scales and suspect it’s awfully inefficient, and so, technologically, I suspect some hybridisation of the architecture is required, where the whole web2.0 idea of user->server->platform just melts away.
In reality, the only real innovation of the fediverse is to parallelise the “server” part
user->server->platformso that a single user on a single platform can be achieved with horizontal scale and a distributed work load.user->server->platform \-server-/ \-server-/This has the effect of FOSS social media being a thing (here we are and it’s awesome TBH), but isn’t really revolutionary from a user perspective. Once multiple platforms communicate over the same protocol, it starts to get revolutionary, but that’s only started as anyone who’s tried to mix mastodon and lemmy can attest to.
Wow thanks for such a verbose post.
That’s given me a lot to chew on
Defederating lemmy.world is a temporary measure as better mod tools are made. It isn’t worth handwringing over. Defederation should not be the norm for dealing with a few trolls, or objectionable communities.
This isn’t handwringing, though I can understand why it might come off that way. This is simply mulling over how things “actually work” in the fediverse as opposed to how people believe it works. I believe that many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this software is and how it works. This is an educational issue that we have an opportunity to begin sorting out
In addition, my scenario of instance users subscribing to illegal content will still be valid even with moderation tools. The only way to stop that currently is defederation with instances hosting illegal content.
Nah. I don’t think it’s an education issue. E.g. I do understand how it works, but see defederation as the nuclear option. As a user in a federated system I don’t care where the communities are hosted that I frequent. As long as it works. That’s the entire point of federation. Otherwise we could just remove federation all together and have everyone create a separate account per instance.
I get where the beehaw admins are coming from and it’s understandable. But it’s not good and chips away at what Lemmy is and could be.
This is one instance now where this happened and I’m not on either of these instances, so I’m unaffected. But if I see more of these defederations (no matter where), the Signal it sends me is that for my needs I likely still have to bet on Reddit and at max this will become an occasional visit.
We are still far away from this point. Just saying. And a normal user can’t be expected to understand it or relate to it. It’s bad UX if they have to. Arguing for them to be educated about it is nice in theory, but misses in reality of how things just are.
Beehaw admins have no responsibility to “Lemmy as a whole” and to believe so is fundamentally misunderstanding what Lemmy instances are. They have a responsibility to their users to curate the space that they promised.
That makes sense. I think this also shows a general misunderstanding. Lemmy isn’t and can’t be a replacement for something like Reddit at the end.
A replacement for reddit in that it’s the same community, culture, and content, as reddit, just hosted in a different place? No. And I hope not.
A replacement for reddit in just being an alternative social media with a similar general vibe but instead is community driven and owned social media system that generally provides better, more informative, and less outrage driven content? I believe it is.
I mean everyone seeks something different out of those communities. I do wish for the second option in general as well. But at the same time get a lot of value out of large communities with a lot of participants and content.
Depend on what you want or need and that’s different for a lot of folks.
Federation/Fediverse should mean a user of any instance should be able to use any community. Gated communities shouldn’t be the expected norm. So, I would agree with the lemmy.world people who are upset at being broadly blocked from a Fediverse community. But it doesn’t matter because beehaw says it is temporary.
I don’t think that assertion is based in reality. A server has to be hosted somewhere, and admins will generally choose to uphold those local regulations for the sake of their instance’s own longevity. Federation has never meant that you communicate with literally every other instance. This isn’t Tor where nodes pass along communications that don’t directly involve themselves.
Two separate issues are prompting “defederation”. Blocking users from posting to your local community and blocking remote communities from being mirrored on your server. Those should be handled differently. Beehaw didn’t want trolls posting mean things and blocked every user on a server. Your concern about illegal content would be more a complaint about specific communities that feature that content.
Either way you shouldn’t blame an entire server for a few users or communities you don’t want. Expecting everyone on a instance to be like minded isn’t going to work.
This is true, except for one element:
Fediverse should mean a user of any instance should be able to use any community the instance elects to federate with. Lemmy is open by design, but instances can just as easily switch that feature off and go to a allowlist method.
A commonly missed element with federation is that you federate with who you trust since you essentially mirror their content. It’s less apparent with the lemmy migration, but mastodon used to caution its users to “join an instance that aligns with your preferences” for this reason.
Federation is really a philosophy about mutual trust, just like how email providers can block messages by user, instance, or domain.
Trust me, there’s likely more gating present than you’re aware of. Maybe not at lemmy.world (which as of this post is only blocking one site for reasons I won’t mention), but this can get dark pretty quick if you leave things completely open.
A major instance (in terms of comunities) like Beehaw changing from denylist to Allowlist would be devastating for users on small and single-user instances, so I hope it never comes to that. Unless there’s some process to get hundreds of tiny unknow instances in the Allowlist
I think some people see Lemmy as a way to host their own self-supported community on their own server, with users identifying strongly with the values of the instance, and with cohesion among the users of the instance.
While other people (me included) see instances more as something to just host the account, so we can participate in Commities across “the network”, where “the network” is basically all the Lemmy instances except the de-federated extremists, or other walled gardens. User-cohesion is more on the Community-level and less on the Instance-level.
Do we want a small network of instances that have proven themselves trustworthy? Or do we want a large network of instances that have yet to prove themselves untrustworthy? Different people will have different answers
You do bring up a good point about needing to trust your federated instances because you’re essentially mirroring their content
As we are seeing the same issues with Lemmy and Mastodon I’m starting to think there is something fundamentally wrong with ActivityPub.
Because instances pull content from others they have a responsibility in the content, so instances with different rules can’t really work together.
If on the other hand we had a lighter integration between instances, like for example RSS to consume from multiple instances and only having federation for identity management (like OpenID or OAuth) I feel like we could avoid a lot of drama.
Its not as bad as you describe. The issue is only present when it comes to large instances interacting with other large instances. As an instance takes on more users, it is going to have a harder time serving everyone all at once. So some restrictions will ha e to be imposed so it can offer service at scale. This will include defederating with other large instances for community maintenance.
The solution is that if you need your own set of rules than it is up to you to host your own instance. I think that is fair.
Overall, instances should in general try to federate, because that is what makes this go round. And you Alcan understand the salt users would have since they are effectively banned from a large community over something that they didn’t really do. But those are the breaks, and the whole point is that if you don’t like it you should host your self and maintain a good relationship with the instances that you want to participate in.
It’s unfortunate that a handful of replies here are demonstrating exactly why the Beehaw community leaders felt they had to make this choice. 😞
If Lemmy instances are like web forums, federation basically gives us a “Sign in with your [home instance] account” option. (That’s not technically accurate at all, I’m only talking about the user experience.) It reduces user friction and helps people participate more widely. They just stopped allowing that from certain instances because they think adding a bit of friction back in will be healthier for the Beehaw communities. If you’re on one of the defederated instances, you aren’t banned. Yeah, it’s inconvenient for you, but you just need a different sign-in (at least for the time being).
From an end user perspective, I want a singular UI to browse all my various Lemmy identities in a cohesive manner. Not logged in on multiple tabs, trying to keep my subscription lists synced or otherwise organized. This is where a good app front end could smooth a lot of user friction out of the process.
A huge portion of people seem to be misidentifying communities as belonging to “lemmy” as opposed to the instances that host them.
The thing that I think didn’t sit right with a lot of people is that Beehaw’s admins apparently said (I haven’t seen it first hand) that they see a future in refederating with Beehaw’s communities being kept private, only accessible to Beehaw users, while Beehaw users would get access to the wider Fediverse.
To be honest, I feel that it’s Beehaw’s prerogative to grant or revoke access to anyone on other instances, but also I wouldn’t be surprised that in turn other instances would not federate with an instance that would not give access to other instances’ users for its communities.
That’s sounds…not possible. At least at the current iteration of the software. It also seems like kinda the opposite of what the fediverse was meant to be.
I just looked at one of my communities and the only main setting is whether mods can post. You can’t set perms at the community level to exclude certain users or make them private
On the latter part of your reply. I agree. It is their prerogative but I do see obvious benefits of not going say…allowlist only federation. We are swiftly hitting a point where there will need to be instances just to manage user registrations and avoid bottlenecks and scaling issues.
Yep, not possible currently, hence defederation for now. The point is that there must be some change, better mod tools, less new users, or something to change the calculus for Beehaw to refederate. The point Beehaw is making that they can’t create the community they want with the current software iteration, either with regards to perms or mod tools without defederating from other big instances.
BTW that’s my point, it’s not what the Fediverse is meant to be, that’s why it’s weird. Again, this is second hand info, so take it with a grain of salt.
We are swiftly hitting a point where there will need to be instances just to manage user registrations and avoid bottlenecks and scaling issues.
IDK why is everyone making accounts on the 3-4 biggest instances.
IDK why is everyone making accounts on the 3-4 biggest instances.
How do you expect a newcomer who has no understanding of content federation to find these low-pop instances? Of course everyone’s joining the main handful, they don’t know anything else exists.
I’d imagine most people coming from typical social media don’t even realize that instances are a thing when they sign up on one. They’ve heard about lemmy or kbin or whatever, so they go to lemmy or kbin or whatever and sign up. Once they learn how it works, they’ve already established a profile on that instance; they’re not going to start over on a new one.
I completely understand the reason for the current workflow. However, IMO that makes Lemmy almost unusable. I already have a programming and a gaming community that I can’t use Jerboa on. That’s pretty bad.
Excuse me, I’ve been using Jerboa. Are you saying Jerboa, the app, is filtering out some servers, in addition to what my home server has blocked? If so where could I get more information on what Jerboa isn’t allowing?
Jerboa, the GUI, is not filtering anything. The only restrictions might be with your “home instance”.
