You’re not addressing the central point of my claim and simply restating your initial statement: that the president can change policy
has the power to change bad policy
while ignoring the key difference between Cuba and Israel. They are completely dissimilar situations with vastly different implications. The progressive left --which cares so much about genocide suddenly (forget Yemen, Syria, where more people have died int he last 6 years by an order of 10 than the entire palestine-israel conflict in the last100 years)-- made up their mind about Biden long before Oct 7. The only way for Joe to pander to their vote is by accomplishing miracles at this point and I think that ship has sailed a long time ago so I really doubt they are the key demographic that will cost him his election.
The progressive left --which cares so much about genocide suddenly (forget Yemen, Syria, where more people have died int he last 6 years by an order of 10 than the entire palestine-israel conflict in the last100 years)
Nice whataboutism strawman combo but that’s false. The left are the ONLY ones who have consistently criticized BOTH major parties for atrocities committed in Yemen, Syria and elsewhere.
Besides, Palestine and Israel is an area the size of New Jersey with roughly one and a half times the population where only one party even has a military and the other is confined to areas under its complete control, so your comparison to ACTUAL wars is absolutely ludicrous.
made up their mind about Biden long before Oct 7
Also false. The people who voted for him in 2020 were in large part still with him.
The only way for Joe to pander to their vote is by accomplishing miracles
No longer actively choosing to allow war crimes and even committing some yourself in support is not a miracle and it sure as hell isn’t PANDERING! What the fuck is wrong with you??
I really doubt they are the key demographic that will cost him his election.
Yeah, he can easily afford to lose Michigan, home of the largest Muslim population in the country… Oh, wait! He fucking can’t!
Besides, he only beat Trump very narrowly the first time around, boosted by good voter turnout as the left was actively experiencing how awful a Trump presidency was and hoped that Biden could be influenced to shift further left on key issues.
Now that those hopes have been mostly dashed, it’s EXTRA important that he doesn’t further alienate the left. Which he’s doing.
The way things are now, most polls have the Mango Mussolini winning and in both previous elections he’s OVERPERFORMED compared to the polls.
Just to circle back, because you keep side-stepping it: Cuba is not equivalent to Israel. In any form or manner. That’s what started this conversation.
If you followed any of the left pundits, news outlets, and even social media (including Lemmy) before Oct 7 you would know that Joe was long dead in the water to this demographic. You can latch on to Israel/Palestine as a defining moment for this election but honestly if it wasn’t for this, this group would have found something else to latch on to. Joe may very well lose this election, but it won’t be because of the progressive left by any shot as demonstrated by who is actually showing up tot he polls (even if pivot states such as Mi with large muslim populations exist).
Cuba is not equivalent to Israel. In any form or manner.
I never said that they are. I in fact specifically answered your question/assertion by saying so. That’s not side stepping, that’s accurately and honestly addressing your whataboutism.
That’s what started this conversation.
No, that’s the irrelevant direction in which YOU are trying to hijack the conversation.
If you followed any of the left pundits, news outlets, and even social media (including Lemmy) before Oct 7 you would know that Joe was long dead in the water to this demographic
I did and that’s simply not true. I think you’re letting your bias confuse you into thinking that any criticism equals total condemnation and disownment. It doesn’t.
You can latch on to Israel/Palestine as a defining moment for this election but honestly if it wasn’t for this, this group would have found something else to latch on to.
Typical apologist tactic: rather than address the issue, claim that the others are just PRETENDING to care about the brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians with American weapons to have something to criticize Biden for 🤦
Guess what: we DO care, and the fact that you’re more interested in deflecting to your conspiracy theory that the left just wants Biden to fail no matter what shows that YOU don’t care enough about Palestinian lives and know nothing about the left outside of your own cynical caricatures.
Is it possible to have a conversation without morally loading every statement or are you here for the virtue signalling? I don’t think I’ve attacked you personally in any of my posts, have I?
sure as hell isn’t PANDERING! What the fuck is wrong with you??
Typical apologist tactic
PRETENDING to care about the brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians
deflecting to your conspiracy theory
shows that YOU don’t care enough about Palestinian lives
I think it’s time to close Lemmy for the day. Cheers.
Is it possible to have a conversation without morally loading every statement
When that conversation is about genocide and the enabling of such? Hopefully not.
I don’t think I’ve attacked you personally in any of my posts, have I?
Not directly, but accusing everyone on the left of not really caring about the genocide and instead just using it as a pretense to attack Biden for the sake of attacking Biden IS indirectly calling me a cynical liar.
I think it’s time to close Lemmy for the day
Sure, just mount your imaginary High Road High Horse and ride away when you don’t have an answer to legitimate criticism of your dismissive rhetoric, baseless accusations, and obvious deflection 🙄
I’m a progressive leftie and care about genocide too but it’s not a magic shield that suddenly grants all my arguments immunity from criticism and also imposes on me the justification to insult everyone that disagrees with me personally. That’s just called being a dick.
I’m a progressive leftie and care about genocide too
Suuure you are! All that talk about the left in third person and automatic defending of the conservative neoliberal Biden was just something I imagined! 🙄
it’s not a magic shield that suddenly grants all my arguments immunity from criticism and also imposes on me the justification to insult everyone that disagrees with me personally.
Holy gigantic strawman, Batman!
You can criticize my arguments all you want, but if you’re not only wrong but also arguing from a place of insulting and belittling prejudice and reflexive apologia, then you should expect to be criticized right back and yes, insulted for your obviously bad takes.
I may or may not have been right about you not really caring about the genocide, but the fact is that you’re acting like it by pretending that Biden’s willing participation in it is a non-issue and that anyone who criticizes him for that has an ulterior motive of “just not liking him no matter what” or whatever you imagine to silence that nagging “could I be wrong about Biden?” voice in the back of your mind.
I want lefties to be politically effective, but right now all we care about is empty rhetoric. You’re the prime example of that. Instead of being concerned with engaging and constructing good arguments, you spent half the time criticizing my motivations. Because that’s all we are amounting right now is living up to the meme of ‘hot’ air and no substance. So we come with asinine statements like:
Biden should just pause Israel because Obama was able to reverse Cuba
and the moment someone points how stupid this is you went straight to
WHY YOU LOVE GENOCIDE!!!
We gotta do better (and i don’t care if this sounds like tone policing). I’m sick of the fake moral indignation. I want people to start thinking about being politically effective and actually changing the discourse towards what can be accomplished.
You’re not addressing the central point of my claim and simply restating your initial statement: that the president can change policy
while ignoring the key difference between Cuba and Israel. They are completely dissimilar situations with vastly different implications. The progressive left --which cares so much about genocide suddenly (forget Yemen, Syria, where more people have died int he last 6 years by an order of 10 than the entire palestine-israel conflict in the last 100 years)-- made up their mind about Biden long before Oct 7. The only way for Joe to pander to their vote is by accomplishing miracles at this point and I think that ship has sailed a long time ago so I really doubt they are the key demographic that will cost him his election.
Nice whataboutism strawman combo but that’s false. The left are the ONLY ones who have consistently criticized BOTH major parties for atrocities committed in Yemen, Syria and elsewhere.
Besides, Palestine and Israel is an area the size of New Jersey with roughly one and a half times the population where only one party even has a military and the other is confined to areas under its complete control, so your comparison to ACTUAL wars is absolutely ludicrous.
Also false. The people who voted for him in 2020 were in large part still with him.
No longer actively choosing to allow war crimes and even committing some yourself in support is not a miracle and it sure as hell isn’t PANDERING! What the fuck is wrong with you??
Yeah, he can easily afford to lose Michigan, home of the largest Muslim population in the country… Oh, wait! He fucking can’t!
Besides, he only beat Trump very narrowly the first time around, boosted by good voter turnout as the left was actively experiencing how awful a Trump presidency was and hoped that Biden could be influenced to shift further left on key issues.
Now that those hopes have been mostly dashed, it’s EXTRA important that he doesn’t further alienate the left. Which he’s doing.
The way things are now, most polls have the Mango Mussolini winning and in both previous elections he’s OVERPERFORMED compared to the polls.
Just to circle back, because you keep side-stepping it: Cuba is not equivalent to Israel. In any form or manner. That’s what started this conversation.
If you followed any of the left pundits, news outlets, and even social media (including Lemmy) before Oct 7 you would know that Joe was long dead in the water to this demographic. You can latch on to Israel/Palestine as a defining moment for this election but honestly if it wasn’t for this, this group would have found something else to latch on to. Joe may very well lose this election, but it won’t be because of the progressive left by any shot as demonstrated by who is actually showing up tot he polls (even if pivot states such as Mi with large muslim populations exist).
I never said that they are. I in fact specifically answered your question/assertion by saying so. That’s not side stepping, that’s accurately and honestly addressing your whataboutism.
No, that’s the irrelevant direction in which YOU are trying to hijack the conversation.
I did and that’s simply not true. I think you’re letting your bias confuse you into thinking that any criticism equals total condemnation and disownment. It doesn’t.
Typical apologist tactic: rather than address the issue, claim that the others are just PRETENDING to care about the brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians with American weapons to have something to criticize Biden for 🤦
Guess what: we DO care, and the fact that you’re more interested in deflecting to your conspiracy theory that the left just wants Biden to fail no matter what shows that YOU don’t care enough about Palestinian lives and know nothing about the left outside of your own cynical caricatures.
Is it possible to have a conversation without morally loading every statement or are you here for the virtue signalling? I don’t think I’ve attacked you personally in any of my posts, have I?
I think it’s time to close Lemmy for the day. Cheers.
When that conversation is about genocide and the enabling of such? Hopefully not.
Not directly, but accusing everyone on the left of not really caring about the genocide and instead just using it as a pretense to attack Biden for the sake of attacking Biden IS indirectly calling me a cynical liar.
Sure, just mount your imaginary High Road High Horse and ride away when you don’t have an answer to legitimate criticism of your dismissive rhetoric, baseless accusations, and obvious deflection 🙄
I’m a progressive leftie and care about genocide too but it’s not a magic shield that suddenly grants all my arguments immunity from criticism and also imposes on me the justification to insult everyone that disagrees with me personally. That’s just called being a dick.
Suuure you are! All that talk about the left in third person and automatic defending of the conservative neoliberal Biden was just something I imagined! 🙄
Holy gigantic strawman, Batman!
You can criticize my arguments all you want, but if you’re not only wrong but also arguing from a place of insulting and belittling prejudice and reflexive apologia, then you should expect to be criticized right back and yes, insulted for your obviously bad takes.
I may or may not have been right about you not really caring about the genocide, but the fact is that you’re acting like it by pretending that Biden’s willing participation in it is a non-issue and that anyone who criticizes him for that has an ulterior motive of “just not liking him no matter what” or whatever you imagine to silence that nagging “could I be wrong about Biden?” voice in the back of your mind.
I want lefties to be politically effective, but right now all we care about is empty rhetoric. You’re the prime example of that. Instead of being concerned with engaging and constructing good arguments, you spent half the time criticizing my motivations. Because that’s all we are amounting right now is living up to the meme of ‘hot’ air and no substance. So we come with asinine statements like:
and the moment someone points how stupid this is you went straight to
WHY YOU LOVE GENOCIDE!!!
We gotta do better (and i don’t care if this sounds like tone policing). I’m sick of the fake moral indignation. I want people to start thinking about being politically effective and actually changing the discourse towards what can be accomplished.