Israel is partially to blame for how successful Hamas’s attack on October 7th was and of course for the original motivation to commit such strikes.
So if I shot you, it’s partly your fault for not dodging, right ?
Except, in this case, you had him tied to a chair first and shot him because he spat on you.
Russians killing Ukrainians = Genocide Israel killing Palestinians = Freedom fighters
I have no idea what you are trying to say
Add a line break between “genocide” and “israel”.
In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here’s a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can’t say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go “your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages”, which couldn’t be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
I saw all the videos of Oct7.
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
How many hostages does Israel hold?
So is it okay to propose that hamas could have a success if they captured the same amount?
No israel would still kill all the hostages held by Hamas. Their government doesn’t care about hostages.
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
You mean all those videos are fake?
Many of the videos are real. Hamas definitely shot some civilians. The problem is all the burnt bodies.
If you ask the question “How did Israel count 250 burnt Hamas fighters as Israeli civilians” the narrative falls apart.
I don’t think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I’d like to ask a question “is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?”.
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a “hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians” narrative, than any other explanation would fit the “Israel doesn’t care about Israeli” narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
Being an asshole rarely brings people to your side
You’re right I have repeated myself a lot over the last months which tends to get tiring but this person might not yet be up to date.
I will rephrase my previous comment thank you for pointing it out.
is all of this compiled anywhere else? bullet points or something with links?
i believe it, but i won’t spread it unless i can verify it.
Yes this video is actually addressing his article which is filled with links and evidence:
Netanyahu’s War on Truth - Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
If you skip the chapter “intelligence failures” and go straight to “Information warfare” you’ll find evidence for all his claims in the video.
the entire article fully formatted in markdown
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
8000-9000 dead combatants, 20,000 civilians. Hamas isn’t even doing a good job of using human shields. One of the Lord’s was before parliament yesterday putting the perspective of that ratio out there. Kudos to Israel for their hard work in protecting civilians in the Urban warfare they’re engaged in was essentially the summary. 2:1 is apparently much better than the 6:1 typical of situations like this. Still too many people dying. The rockets need to stop ASAP.
Even IDF skewed exaggeratd false numbers admited they kill 70% kids and women to 30% Men aka Hamas. Where did you get that 2:1 from? Do you feel better to make up things just to not face the reality that Israel is an aparthied state and genocidal terrorists who kill babies in incubators, cripple and amputate kids, bomb and shoot women little kids hiding in their houses and cars?
The ratio was presented by a Lord in Parliament yesterday. Didn’t catch his name, he was some sort of historian. I’m sure you can find it in the record, it was in session. The absurdity of calling Israel an apartheid state when Arabs sit in Parliament, on the Courts and in political office, while the street signs are Arabic and Hebrew is utterly absurd. Do you know any Israeli Arabs? They’ve been among the loudest supporters of Zionism out there since October. That statement alone identifies you as an absolute joke.
And some of the loudest detractors of the apartheid state of israel are jewish
Two Jews three opinions is a phrase that goes back to before Islam had been conceived. It’s hardly surprising that there are Jews speaking out against themselves. What’s more surprising is the overwhelming support for the state of Israel by the Palestinian Israeli population. I suppose they of all people understand how good they have it in Israel.
Interesting that you say “jews speaking out against themselves”
Those Jewish people about are speaking out against israel. The state of israel and Judaism are not the same thing, as much as zionists will try to convince you otherwise. Speaking against israel is not speaking against judaism or Jewish people as a whole.
And yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Palestinians living in israel that are loudly declaring support for israel. They don’t want to be hurt or killed, so they say what they think will keep them safe.
Although I couldn’t find much info about that, do you have any source or more info?
The safety of Jews is absolutely directly tied to the existence of Israel, the state of Israel is directly linked to Judaism which is why Jews daily prayer starts with a call to Israel. It’s why all Jewish holidays are based on the agricultural cycles of Israel. An anti Zionist Jew is absolutely working against their own interests.
That you think Arabs in Israel don’t have the ability to speak out against the government demonstrates your ignorance here, they’re in the streets by the thousands protesting weekly.
Muhammed zoabi is a good follow if you’re interested in Arabs who support Israel while being critical of their government and policies. He is great at breaking down complex concepts although he’s a bit out there at times.
Consistency is not necessary, IMO. What did Israel expect Gaza to do when they started genociding them? The deaths of all civilians as well as all combatants are the fault of Israel. They don’t get to play dumb about what was going to happen after starting a genocide.
I disagree. It’s difficult to ask perfection from Palestinian resistance but there were still mistakes made. But two wrongs do not make a right and we need to stay morally consistent.
If a Hamas fighter did knowingly shoot a non-combatant then that action is wrong.
But how can they possibly know someone is a non-combatant? The opponent doesn’t even follow the Geneva convention, meaning it’s correct to fire on people wearing a red cross, carrying a white flag, etc.
Well yes israel doesn’t follow any rules. They should all be Neurenberged. But the goal is not lowering to israels level.
To be clear I do not care if Hamas attacks IDF.
There are several instances of Hamas soldiers not attacking non combatants which was good.
But there are definitely cases of other soldiers not doing this. They are not a monolith.
It is shitty that civilians get caught up in this but I feel it’s a lot as if Nazi germany accused the allies of genocide in WW2. There simply is no moral base for this. And let’s not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
And let’s not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So was Putin…
Same story, ultimately russians are responsible for Putin.
Yes but apart from the usual cynicism you can’t know how bad a politician will be. Putin and Hamas have not had real democratic elections for a long time now. Longer than the expected term length. Are civilians really responsible for this? Would you risk your life and that of your family to revolt against dictators? Because that’s what you’re asking people to do.
On the topic of Hama’ rise to power though, who created the circumstances for Palestinians to make Hamas a good option?
So what are saying is that because the allies bombed Dresden, the Germans were actually defending themselves against the Jews?
And you say that you agree with the Nazi’s committing the Holocaust?
Wtf is wrong with you dude
What? What I mean is if you vote for the extremists, don’t be suprised pickachu face if your male population is decimated and your capital looks like Berlin 1945 afterwards.
I didn’t vote for Trump, but I should be killed because he got into power anyways? That’s fucked up, especially since Hamas was financially supported by israel
If Trumps insanity escalates too much and you fail to distance yourself sufficiently then at one point thats the only way.
Think about it from the other side: was it wrong to accept collateral damage to german civilians in order to stop the Nazis? How is this different?
First, how is it different?
That was a traditional war, with opposing armies facing each other in combat. Palestine cannot have an army due to the oslo accords.
The majority of the people killed in WWII Germany were the victims of the Holocaust, then the German soldiers, not civilians. Here, the vast majority killed are civilians, not the Hamas combatants.
The goal of the Allies was to end the war. The goal of israel is revenge and (depending on which israeli you ask) the elimination of the state is Palestine.
Second, no I don’t think that the German civilian deaths were fine. Just like I don’t agree with dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese civilian towns. And WWII is infamous for being brutal, inhumane, and a repulsive example of human hatred and violence.
So to summarize, killing innocent people is bad. The people dying don’t deserve to die and don’t have to die. israel should stop.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians, they are getting caught up because Hamas uses human shield tactics that maximize civilian deaths. Israel also is not in to destroy palestine or for revenge, they are in for destroying Hamas. And when dealing with extremists you have to go for full surrender, always was like this thoughout history and it’s also true here. War has changed that’s true and Israel is making use of that to minimize civilian deaths, did you note how they are using guided bombs instead if carpet bombing for instance? Still it’s impossible to save every innocent civilian and it is an infeasible standard for a war even in this day and age.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians
Well that’s just objectively wrong.
Israel dropped more bombs to Gaza in a week than the US did in Afghanistan… in a year.
But you’ll criticise the sources so let’s go with the UN (although IDF trolls will still complain that UN is somehow controlled by Hamas or smth equally silly)
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15564.doc.htm
As Israel’s Aerial Bombardments Intensify, ‘There Is No Safe Place in Gaza’, Humanitarian Affairs Chief Warns Security Council
Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people
GENEVA (16 November 2023) – Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’ in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
At least 95 civilians – nearly half of them children – killed in four unlawful strikes in Rafah
Attacks took place in southern governorate supposed to be “safe”
All four strikes are likely direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects and must be investigated as war crimes
Tldr gtf on out of here, idf troll
Hamas hasn’t held an election since 2006. In that election, 45% of the population voted for Hamas, 42% voted for the Fatah, and the remaining 13% voted for smaller parties. Half of Gaza is under 18 and 65% percent of the population is younger than the 25 years old.
So what you’re saying is that Gazans should expect to be murdered because, in an election held when the majority of them were too young to vote and half of them weren’t even alive, a minority of people voted for extremists. Great point dude.
It’s not like public opinion has changed much in palestine, check the other comments for sources.
But ultimately I believe that people are responsible for their government. If you are born in gaza, realize that Hamas is shit but don’t try to bring change through protests or organizing opposition and also don’t leave but stay, go on with your live and pay your taxes to Hamas etc. then you’re part of the problem. Otherwise what is left? Hamas being untouchable due to the people acting as human shields? In my book that’s way worse.
Totally dude, totally. If I were a child growing up in Gaza, and I lived in poverty, with poor access to food and medicine because of Israeli blockades, while thousands of my countrymen where killed or displaced by Israeli air raids or gunned down by the IDF for protesting…well, obviously I would want to overthrow Hamas. I would definitely hate the group fighting the country makes my life hell, and I would definitely try get Hamas out of power.
Like you said, people are responsible for their government, and the people of Gaza (who are, again, HALF CHILDREN) are responsible for removing these extremists from power, even though they don’t hold elections. Another great take dude.
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity? And you think after what happened Israel should just accept Hamas at their border and wait it out for the next attack?
Sucks for the kids but it’s also pretty bad for the Israeli children that are still in captivity btw. Should Israel just give up on them?
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity?
Holy shit the Israeli propaganda is strong.
After more than a month of the Israeli government’s unlawful blockade of Gaza, which has included catastrophic cuts to water, fuel, and electricity, as well as very limited deliveries of food, water, and medical supplies, the lack of clean water is resulting in “grave concerns” by public health experts of an imminent infectious disease outbreak in Gaza, including waterborne illnesses like cholera and typhoid.
Israel is genociding Palestinians. This is not some controversial take. It’s the stance of the UN and the majority of the international community, supported by mountains of evidence.
Yet still pigs like you dare write garbage comments like that
A) No, I mean the blockades that have been going on since 2007. They limit necessary supplies to Gaza and are the reason it has been called an, “open-air prison.” B) Israel is the occupying force in Gaza and therefore has a legal obligation to supply Gaza with water and power under the Oslo Accords. C) Israel has been failing in that obligation, because for years 97% of the drinking water has been below the minimum safety standards for human consumption.
Anyway, again, really great points, really showing your knowledge of the conflict here.
Great job blaming THE LITERAL VICTEMS OF GENOCIDE FOR THEIR GENOCIDE,
So the palestinians are being victimized both by Hamas and Israel and they have no control of their live whatsoever? If this is your take then why do they choose to stay and why do they choose to bring kids into an environment like this?
No, my stance is that Isn’treal is comitting a gennocide aganst palistine. Hamas is not victimising anyone here, they are in effect one of the organizations the opressed are using to fight back.
As for why they “chose to stay” where do they have to go, for the VAST majority not only is palistine the only place they have citizenship to, its also their home, and most people do not take kindly to an invador trying to take it, or to wipe you and your culture out.
As for why have children, because 1) why aid the genocide and 2) they are still humans doing human things, they still want families, they still have hope for a future, when things get bad we dont just stop having offspring.
Hamas started the war. Hamas took hostages to force a ground campaign. Hamas spent huge amounts of resources building an underground tunnel network. To say they dug in within the civilian population of Gaza is a massive understatement. Hamas does not wear uniforms when they fight.
Those are facts that oversimplified cartoon memes can’t change.
Even if we assume everything you said was completely true and without merit… Does it justify IDF knowingly killing civilians?
It’s war. If there’s a valid military objective, then you hit the target even when you know civilian casualties are possible. Efforts should be made 9and they are) to prevent civilian casualties, but in a war civilian casualties are inevitable.
Hamas knew civilian casualties would happen in the war they started. In fact they started the war by killing civilians. Hamas simply didn’t care about civilian casualties, both Israeli and Palestinian.
Isn’treal has been doing a genoicide lots longer than october the 8th, look at the Nakba, Heck look at the statments the government of Isn’treal makes about the palistinians.
The good old cycle of violence, huh? Logically if the Nakba justifies October 7, then October 7 justifies everything that’s happening now.
Of course logically speaking, when you choose violence, the only thing that matters is which side has the greater capability of exercising violence on the other. And that side is clearly Israel.
The Nakba may have given Palestinians a stronger hand at the negotiating table. But Palestinians chose Hamas and Hamas chose violence. Their grievances are irrelevant when they commit an act of war.
No clean hands here. The whole situation is garbage. The particularly salient point is that Israel, as the nation-state actor and a liberal democracy is expected to act more responsibly and with a higher moral character. Bibi’s a trash human being, but the longer this goes (and has gone) on the more and more of the culpability is shared by everyday Israelis.
The entire conflict was started by israel when they stole the Palestinians land.
And the only party actively refusing to resolve the conflict is also israel, openly saying they will never acknowledge a Palestinian state and proudly presenting their plans to colonize the west bank as well.
The term “liberal democracy” is rather generous for a Nazi-like apartheid.
Horrid take
