“Dead language”
Dude it doesn’t count if you’re literally killing the language on purpose
Yup. Wish my Welsh grandfather could’ve lived to see this.
It’s also not a dead language by any stretch of the imagination. Even latin isn’t technically a dead language since it is still used.
Imperialists calling something dead is often just wishful thinking.
A dead language is one that isn’t used by real people everyday, not a language some academics can still speak.
That’s why Welsh and Irish are basically considered dead to many because the native speakers are so few that it could disappear very easily.
Also who the fuck speaks Latin still? Does the papal city place in Italy even speak that during it’s day to do going ons?
What are you on about? Welsh is by no definition “basically considered a dead language” over 30% of the country can speak Welsh. And its on all official communication, like government websites, announcements, road signs etc.
That’s why Welsh and Irish are basically considered dead to many
Uh…no. As far as I know, none of these languages are dead. Irish is dying but it’s not dead yet. Welsh is thriving and is pretty much the only Celtic language being passed down the next generation consistently and has a vigorous community with a respectable size.
Cape Breton has native Scots Gaelic speakers (several communities in our highlands), as well as the Gaelic College. It’s not as dead as people think.
Tha iad math air dannsa-ceum ann an Ceap Breatainn…
Sorry, I don’t speak it. I only know because it was the next county over.
They are good at line dancing in Cape Breton.
I think people call languages with very few native speakers “endangered languages”.
They need to capture some of those languages for some captive breeding.
Just don’t let it breed with English.
Unescos ratings are: Vulnerable, definitely endangered, severely endangered and critically endangered. Once a language loses all of its native speakers, it becomes an extinct language [but can be revived].
Welsh and also Scots are vulnerable whilst Scottish Gaelic and Irish are definitely endangered.
“the papal city place in Italy” shows how great your knowledge is
Oh sorry, excuse me for not remembering the paedophile palaces name.
Honestly the Vatican isn’t worth remembering, along with the hate filled ideology it promotes.
You’re right, btw. Religiosity is still strong in Wales and other parts of the UK. Lots of Catholics, too.
It’s the Methodists that were big in Wales, not the Catholics.
A dead language is one which has no native speakers alive to speak it e.g Latin.
Irish and Welsh aren’t dead. The only dead Celtic language im aware of (but it has been revived since) is Manx, with the last native speaker dying in the 1970s.
You know there are Welsh schools right? And that the Welsh government has two official languages, Welsh and English? And that all official documents have to be bilingual? I’ve heard people speaking Welsh to each other in Wales, and I know someone for whom Welsh is their first language.
Does that sound dead?
Technically, Latin is a dead language, but not an extinct language. It could (heavy emphasis on “could”) come back all of a sudden. That’s what happened to Hebrew.
Extinct languages aren’t even spoken by anyone anymore. Not even a single soul. Gone beyond the point of repair. Disappeared for good, like dinosaurs and dodo birds and megalodon.
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“Just seen”
“Just saw” is accepted shorthand for “I/we just saw…” “I have seen…” is acceptable if you’re saying that you’ve watched a movie 27 times.
Even substituting in “I just have seen” in the OP doesn’t make grammatical sense to me.
The guy should probably worry more about his own English than other people’s Welsh.
“I’ve just seen Dave being kicked out by his missus” works. Maybe it’s regional because [I’ve] just seen the news/the results/the answers/Kelly all sound fine to my ear. But I am a bit of a cockney.
Those sound find to my maritime Canadian ears.
It would definitely be unusual in the various American Englishes that I’m familiar with. “Have seen” is present perfect, and it implies something ongoing (“I have seen The Birdcage over 100 times so far”). “Saw” is the simple past tense, as in “I saw The Birdcage again yesterday.”  It just strikes me very similarly to when a non-proficient English speaker misuses a contraction like “I would like to know what time it’s.”
And honestly, I think language science should be more descriptive than prescriptive in general, and I recognize and respect regional variations. “I seen her yesterday” is a dialect variant you’ll hear in some US regions.
It was really more about the irony.
Just registered on Lemmy at last to pitch in! “I’ve just xyz” is much more common in most Englishes than “I just xyz”, because the present perfect tense implies some connection to the present, hence “present perfect”, and is perfectly correct English. The author has simply omitted “I’ve”, which is common in colloquial speech. This is also common in Dutch, a closely related language that I speak every day as a second language, if that helps legitimise it for anyone: “net gezien” as shorthand for “ik heb net gezien”. In fact, while there are a number of problems with the post, none of them are (“none of them is” for the pedants) grammatical. I assume from the English in your post that it’s not your first language so hopefully this is more helpful than annoying.
For reference: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/grammar/online-grammar/present-perfect-simple-with-just-already-and-yet
Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerd!
That’s me! Humourless too!
Welcome!
While what you’ve said is correct, your application is, unfortunately, incorrect. Once again, the OP did not use the helping verb “have” in front of the pp form of the verb “to see,” which is required. If you would perform a simple search of similar posts in a microblogging format, you will discover that while there is a convention of treating the initial article as implied (“Heard the new Taylor Swift single - amazing!”), there is not a similar established pattern of eliding entire parts of a verb form.
Again, there are similar patterns in other vernaculars. African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in particular uses forms of verbs that differ from those of Standard American English (SAE). AAVE (as well as other English vernaculars such as in the south of Ireland)) use verb forms such as the habitual be (“Mama be doing laundry”) to indicate that the action is performed repeatedly.
In any case, SAE would prefer the standard past tense in this formulation, again with the subject “I” left as implied (“Saw that those nasty Welshmen are acting up again. Fsfafagafacaga!”). It is entirely possible that the author is using a non-standard English vernacular that is perfectly legitimate but with which O am unfamiliar. That’s fine, but it does not decrease the irony of their “Are language is English!!1) post.
And regarding your final sentence, “None of them are” is the more standard formulation in English because it refers to “a number of problems,” which is plural. The singular “none” is reserved for when the meaning is a single exception (“My choice is none of the above, implying that I get to make a single choice).
Hope that helps! Unlike most people, I like the Dutch!
English is my native language; I speak a British dialect and the original post is in British English. “I’ve just xyz” is standard outside American English and omitting “I’ve” is extremely common. I thought I was clear about that. In fact it seems like you haven’t quite paid attention to, or haven’t understood, everything I’ve written, because I quite expressly said I’m not Dutch as well and you seem to think I’m Dutch.
Regarding the is/are thing: you could also say “a number of problems with the post, but one of them is”, and “none” is a short way of saying “not one”, hence “none is”; in fact you’d instinctively say “a number of… but not one of them is”. I’d say “none are” though out of habit. Your “a number is plural” reasoning is overthinking it.
“A number” is plural. You would not (I hope) say “A number of people has complained about my English.”
But the verb in question is what “none” is doing, not “a number”, so that’s irrelevant. By analogy: “The singers are performing today, but one of them has a sore throat.” Introducing “one” doesn’t change the number of “singers”; it’s in a new clause. Bringing something irrelevant into it is what I called overthinking in the last comment.
overthinking
You are truly fortunate not to have that burden.
“Just seen” is an example of a participle element of English tenses that doesn’t align with the formal rules of the English language but has become common colloquialism in many English dialects.
The correct tense concept to classify it under is past-present tense. Not past tence or present tence, as it’s talking about a past event from the perspective of the present.
“formal rules of the English language” that’s rich.
“English doesn’t “borrow” from other languages: it follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar and valuable vocabulary.”
Yeah who formalizes those? French has Academie Francaise which overlooks the language and defines “proper” French but last I checked English has no equivalent.
How does auto-incorrect go and spell tense both the right and wrong way multiple times in two sentences…
“Just seen” sounds just fine to my Canadian ear. They’ve omitted the “I’ve” but it doesn’t matter.
The phrase “I just have seen” though sounds choppy and backwards.
Meh
Way to jump to conclusions.
They’re saying the English are killing the Welsh language, not that their grammar is killing English.
I am saying that if someone is going to be making a point about speaking the right language, a handwritten protest sign stating “Are language is English!! Speak it!!!” doesn’t have that winning feel xenophobes should aim for.
I straight up can’t even comprehend what you’re trying to say now.
I think you’ve missed the original posters intent and have just pivoted to some diatribe?
No, but it’s okay. You can just enjoy the warm thrill of confusion.
That is a reference to a lyric by Pink Floyd, from a song called In The Flesh?. It is a track from their popular mega-album The Wall. Pink Floyd is an English rock band that produced some early psychedelic music and transformed into a progressive rock band. The Wall remains a noteworthy album that’s considered one of the greatest of all time. The album covers the story of a rock star whose successes and developing mental issues drive him to wall himself off from the world.
The song in question is In The Flesh? which is the introductory song on the album. It is a good opener and sets the stage for the rest of the album, which unfolds as a coherent musical narrative. You might quite enjoy it if you manage to straight up comprehend it.
Typical unionist. Adores the kingdom but hates all the different cultures inside of it.
“What a lovely forest, pity there’s trees in it.”
Basically the English in a nutshell considering what they did to Ireland
What a nice island you got there, sure would be a shame if someone were to create an artificial famine, innit?
Also the reason for the endless rolling hills in Ireland is because the British cut down all the trees since the Irish kept hiding in them to fight.
As an Englishman , I disagree, most couldn’t give a flying fuck about whether the Welsh want to learn Welsh, only attention seeking wankers who like to stir up shit say shit like this. Fuck them
I mean the point is more that at one time clearly most of the English wanted that considering a system to defeat the Welsh language was created and adopted by your progenitors.
I’m not trying to defend the decisions of the government’s of old, but your comment reads like the English are all throthing at the mouth at the thought of the Welsh learning Welsh, when the reality is most English people know a Welsh person and for the vast majority of us there is no animosity towards the Welsh or their language. I’ve never heard anyone even talk about it negatively in real life, it’s such a rage bait comment and an opinion that only someone devoid of reality would make.
How can anyone hate a language where the translation for microwave is popty ping.
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How would you or I even know what my forefathers thought, the opinions of the common Englishman in the 1850s aren’t really popular reading. Hell, there’s a good chance some of my forefathers were Welsh and Irish anyway. The opinions of the commoner rarely reflected what the government’s of old decided, considering every man didn’t even get a vote until 1918 the government’s of old didn’t give a fuck what the common man thought anyway so there isn’t much reason to believe my forefathers gave a fuck whether the Welsh spoke Welsh either. I’d imagine they gave more of a fuck about earning enough to pay their taxes and rent just like the common man does now.
It’s clear you have some animosity toward the English, that’s fine. Have a good evening.
Unfortunately those pricks are the reason why outside of Football, waiving the red and white is embarrassing or cringey.
I also dislike seeing the national shame about the English flag, tending to opt for the Union one.
Well and the Scottish
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Bet they’re also missing the heydays of the empire.
Spain agrees.
Ehm, no? Nobody gives a shit if you speak your region’s language as long as you don’t want to use it as an excuse to secede. Think of Galicians, Asturians and Valencians
Catalan and euskera are somehow secesionist languages? That’s exactly what I was talking about. By the way, valencian and catalan are the same language. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian_language
Valencian is catalan
Tell that to a Valencian and they’ll rip your head off like if you just made a “paella”
And no, they aren’t “separatist languages”, but secessionists use them as a symbol of their goals like if a country couldn’t have co-official languages
dead language
If people learn it, and people use it, it is by definition not a dead language.
This is some colonialist BS.
Also, over half a million Welsh speakers exist in Wales, accounting for roughly 20% of the population. It’s hardly dead.
Well Latin is a dead language, people do learn and use it. But there is no new words, or evolution of the language.
Not really, there is an office at the Vatican charged with maintaining orthodox Latin, and they are also responsible for neologisms for contemporary concepts, so that they can weigh in on cell phones, hot dogs, or weapons of mass destruction.
One example:
“hot pants” -> “brevíssimae bracae femíneae”
Also, isn’t Welsh the Celtic language with the most native speakers?
Resurrected Language might be a better way to put it, the Welsh that people speak today is mostly an academic construction (which also applies to French and Portuguese, that isn’t meant as an insult).
what do you mean about french and portuguese being academic reconstructions?
For French it is an insult. Descriptivism is lame
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Modern Hebrew is another good example of this. Possibly the most successful language revitalization project of all time.
Proposal:
Force the English to learn Welsh and rename the English language to American
🇬🇧 English (Traditional)
🇺🇲 English (Simplified)
It’s funny because it’s backwards (verbally, spelling is it’s own thing)
Canada: throws chair
Yeah, let’s rename it to Canadian.
Edit: Be the change you want to see, tell your instance admin to run this SQL query:
UPDATE language SET name = 'Canadian' WHERE id = 37
Welsh here. Not everyone speaks it, but that’s because the English (even as late at the 1950’s) used the school system to literally beat it out of us (look up the Welsh Not). Even with that concerted effort to force the language out, it’s growing again after a few generations have passed. Being from the south, I know relatively few people who speak it fluently, but I know exactly 0 people who would actually want it abolished.
My cousin is dating a guy who’s first language is welsh. His family live basically at the base of Snowdonia. He is fluent in English but welsh is definitely his preferred language. I thought he was a bit aloof when I first met him but he later explained he finds it hard to keep up with the conversation and be as witty and quick in English as he is in welsh, especially in a noisy pub. He’s in his early 30s and all his friends from home are bilingual but consider their native language welsh.
The language revival efforts in the British isles are honestly inspiring. In Scotland a lot of people are making sure their children are educated in Gaelic, even though they don’t speak a word themselves.
I don’t speak Welsh fluently (though am taking classes), but am sending my kids to Welsh medium schools (ie classes are conducted in Welsh, not just learning Welsh as a second language). We were told by the head teacher that 80% of the kids there don’t have parents able to speak it at home, so does appear to be a growing trend. I assume the feeling is similar in Scotland and NI, if not as many schools teaching in those languages yet.
the British trying not to commit cultural genocide for 10 Minutes (impossible)
Not everyone speaks it, but that’s because the English (even as late at the 1950’s) used the school system to literally beat it out of Us
Seems like the typical British MO. Same thing happened with te Reo Maori in New Zealand.
And Australia, America, Canada…
The British are real arses sometimes.
If I had actually learnt/used the language then maybe I would feel less indifferent to it and have a connection to Welsh heritage. I don’t think it should be abolished at all but I might be tempted to make it optional rather than compulsory for practical reasons (I don’t hold that view strongly). Ideally we have more languages as compulsory.
Nah the national language is compulsory in pretty much every country.
Here in Germany we obviously have German classes, but also compulsory English and in many schools compulsory 2nd foreign language. For me this was the choice between french and Latin. Other regions have Dutch, Danish, polish, Italian or Spanish.
So, no hurt in making Welsh compulsory.
The Brits did not learn from their last open vote I see.
They should have stopped at Boaty McBoatface, really.
No, keep it going, ruin the fucking toastbeaners.
This seems like rage bait. The smug british stereotype is too perfect.
It is as well as being in old repost
Anyone who thinks Welsh is a dead language clearly has never visited West or North Wales.
Bring back Cornish and the other minority languages too. Who knows, it might make the place more tolerant of other cultures.
EU used to provide almost all the funding for preserving, teaching and promotion of Cornish. After Brexit, Cornwall is now getting less than half the funding that EU would have provided.
Or most people at least wont understand the racist shit! ;)
“Liatin tuh si bule goblok”
If you know, you know 🤭
La tuya por si acaso
Wel, shit
Yoons typically bang on about the importance of conservation of tradition, UK culture and values but are incredibly quick to deny its national languages. Usually as they see this as a threat to the union instead of something wonderful to protect and promote in modern Britain.
You should see some of the rhetoric on twitter regarding dual road signs. Some madlad got lost driving to Fort William as the sign also says An Gearasdan.
I wonder what the general kill count for languages that can be directly attributed to the english.
I mean, we fucked up the world for centuries so it’s gotta be pretty high. Would you blame Native Americans and indigenous Canadians losing their language on the English or the Americans/Canadians out of interest? We certainly got the ball rolling, but the new North Americans saw it through.
For like two centuries those “Americans” were LITERALLY British.
Yes… that’s why I said we started it. But you’ve had a good 250 years to make a run of it on your own. It was an idle question, no need for any agro.
Edit: spelling
American here. While I don’t really know much about the specifics as far as the language killing goes, I think the blame for the vast majority of atrocities that were inflicted on the Natives falls on America, not England.
Sure, it started with you, but when we separated, we had only stolen the most of the east coast. Now we’ve stolen damn near everything. And Andrew Jackson in particular is to blame for a fuckload of it. He’s definitely ours, as much as I’m ashamed of it. Hiding from history doesn’t do anyone any good.
Thomas Jefferson the OG American Imperialist.
I count the english language as one player in this game.
I don’t think the Aussies would agree with that! But I see what you’re saying, the English speakers were at fault, whether you considered them British or new world north American.
Aussies are settlers mate.
Aborigines send their regards
What’s Welsh for moron? Because this guy is that.
What’s Welsh for moron?
Carrot
Now do microwave :)
Da iawn
Araf
What culture would willingly lose its culture?
Makes no sense
Ah, but the Welsh clearly have no culture and must therefore kindly be uplifted by the English. Just like how Russia is currently trying to uplift Ukraine.
(And just to be sure: /s. Imperialism is bad, no matter what national brand.)
The Welsh have plenty of culture. Like farming. And sheep buggery. /s
Er, the last time I checked the Welsh have their own Parliament… They make their own laws.
In the same way your little brother with his own (unplugged) controller gets to play his own games, sure.
Calling Welsh a dead language in Wales that should be abandoned is like calling Bisaya a dead language in Mindanao
The what where?
Bisaya, in Mindanao
Oh, right, the thing in the place.
It’s on Earth, right?
Ah, thanks, my hearing sucks lately.
What’d you say? You’re rearing ducks?
THAT MY HEARING SUCKS LATELY
I love seeing prpaganda campains fail publicly
