cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/4249593
Democratic Gov. Jared Polis called the Gadsden flag ‘a proud symbol of the American revolution’ after a a Colorado student was told to remove a patch of the “Don’t Tread on Me” flag from his backpack.
It sucks that the symbol is associated with assholes. I’m pretty left, but I’ve always liked the Don’t Tread on Me flag… The average person displaying this flag treads all over people’s rights constantly, though.
The emphasis is on “Me”
Yeah. It’s not an expression of mutual defense, it’s an expression of self defense only.
It doesn’t say “Don’t tread on my neighbor.”
It doesn’t say “I won’t tread on you.” Snakes conveniently don’t wear boots.
Hell, it doesn’t even say “I’ll stick up for my neighbor after they defend themselves from you.”
It could be as simple as “Don’t Tread on Us” but it’s not. To be fair, the wording doesn’t necessarily imply a selfish attitude, but the ones waving a flag definitely do,
As the French ladies used to say, I like Ben Franklin’s snake better.
There is nothing inherently oppressive about saying “Don’t tread on me.”. Individual liberty does not beget an oppressive structure within the collective. An individual should not stand behind the flag in good conscience if the believe that their liberties trump those of others.
Being individually free does not necessitate an oppressive structure within the collective – if all individuals are free, then the collective must also be free.
This seems like it should be true, but unfortunately game theory shows that it is not, due to coordination problems. It’s possible for everyone to have individual free choice in their actions, and yet the collective to be incapable of making the choice that everyone would individually prefer it to make. The elementary example of this is the Prisoner’s Dilemma.
Interestingly, real humans turn out to be better at resolving coordination problems than a purely selfish algorithm is.
It’s possible for everyone to have individual free choice in their actions, and yet the collective to be incapable of making the choice that everyone would individually prefer it to make
The entire point of individualism is that it is opposed to collectivism.
Please consider reading for comprehension of whole sentences or paragraphs, rather than just recognizing single words. The above comment isn’t about individualism vs. collectivism as doctrines.
Your original point is fundamentally flawed, though. The individual has no freedom of choice if the collective is making decisions for the individual. I am also not understanding how this is analogous to the prisoner’s dilemma.
One must still not forget that their liberties do not trump the liberties of others. Freedom is something we enjoy as a collective. If there is inequality in this then the collective is no longer free, but is, instead, oppressive.
In short, the Gadsden flag is not about one being free to trample on the rights of others, but, instead, upholding the freedoms of the collective by respecting the liberties of each unique individual. Inequality in freedom is oppression.
I really wish there was a campaign to take back the flag before it goes the way of the swastika. Although, Gadsen himself was a terrible racist and heavily involved in the slave trade, so might be tough to claim the flag with his name attached to it.
The fact that you have stated this shows that there is a grassroots desire for this movement. If you truly wish to restore the flag – as I do – then you mustn’t wait for someone else to do it for you, but, instead, you should take action yourself; stand up for what you believe in.
The American flag is also at risk of being overtaken by insurrectionists and other morons. Time to take the American flag back from these fools.
Same in Canada. Traditionally we aren’t as flag waving as our southern cousins unless its Canada day or international sporting events but the anti-jab and the Convoy types took over the Canadian flag to be displayed with F*ck Trudeau and Trump flags to make displaying the Canada flag mean you’re with them.
Canada does have a tradition of voting governments out, not in, so some of it is understandable when many blame their personal woes on the current government of the day but this was beyond the usual BS.
I totally feel this way too. Because of the dukes of hazard even the confederate flag did not seem to bad back when the kkk seemed dead and you would think no one would be actually proud of what the flag represented but then the world turned upsidedown.
Yeah I get it. Seemed like the “confederate flag“ was just a southern pride post civil war thing. Hell the damn flag wasn’t even really part of the confederacy and was just a battle flag. The stars and bars, which was more of a flag of the confederacy, like like a cross between and early Tennessean flag and the original flag of the US.
But somewhere along the way it came to symbolize racist pieces of shit that wanted slavery to return.
Yeah there are so many things I thought pretty much gone in the world and woa suddenly they are back and folks are actually serious about it. Next up phrenology being a thing.
Well at least you’re in good company. The swastika/whirling log is noted as one of the oldest complex symbols in use by human cultures. 10s of thousands of years as a symbol of good tidings in the Americas/Europe/Asia. And 20 to 30 years in the hands of fascist bigots tainted it globally for at least the next hundred years.
It’s not uncommonly used in Buddhism. I don’t see it all over the place, but seeing it is completely unremarkable. Just from anecdotal experience I can still say pretty confidently that nobody gives a fuck.
It’s a symbol that was regularly used in human cultures around the world that had no contact. Even the Navajo in the United States had a version of it. But in the Modern Age if you display it openly people are only going to tend to view it one way. And they will give a fuck. And it won’t be based on your viewpoints.
The many histories of the symbol pre Hitler are deep and interesting. But his regime tainted it for most people for at least the rest of our lives and probably our children’s lives if not further.
I have seen it in Thailand, however where I did see it was on much older stuff I noticed. So you got a point, even cultures not really involved in WW2 or the aftermath of it seem like they don’t want to touch it.
The Navajo Nation here in the Americas who are on the other side of the world and came up with the symbol before recorded history on their own. And even fought with us many times against the nazis. Dropped the use of it for many of their cultural things. Hopefully someday it will outlive the stigma and be something that can be used culturally as it should be.
I don’t doubt that they did. It just seems like something anyone drawing would randomly come up on. I am just saying what I saw there.
Fascists tend to ruin things.
It sucks that the symbol is associated with assholes.
I would suggest rewriting this statement as follows:
“It sucks that the symbol gets associated with assholes.”
This does, of course, depend on which “assholes” that you are referring to; however, the bottom line is that the Gadsden flag is a symbol that represents ideas of individual liberty, and resistance to authoritarianism. If it gets mistakenly co-opted by individuals that do not share these values, that does not change what the flag fundamentally represents, but, instead, that which it gets associated with.
I’m pretty left, but I’ve always liked the Don’t Tread on Me flag…
It depends on how you are defining “left-wing” but I would that the Gadsden flag’s symbolism is not mutually exclusive with being “left-wing”. At a fundamental level, the Gadsden flag represents ideas of rejecting authoritarianism and supporting individual liberty. So long as one’s beliefs align with this, then they can fly the flag without compunction.
The average person displaying this flag treads all over people’s rights constantly, though.
This statement is pure conjecture.
Cry cry cry
I need this sticker on my shitty pickup.
Seems like whatever admin did this just mistook the permission they were given. Kid had a bunch of patches on his bag, some had firearms, school got direction from the district that they could have those removed, told the family, family removed offending patches, and that should’ve been that. But kid went to school and some busy body saw a patch on his bag and decided that any patch must be offending, so took it too far.
Also, the flag patch was approved, so he can wear it going forward. Unless there some clear pattern with the admin who drove this, seems like whoever manages them just needs to give them a don’t be an ass talk and we can move on.
Lefty here, I don’t have a problem with the flag itself. I have issues with people who fly it the most completely misunderstand what personal freedoms truly means. As someone who is an LGBTQ+ ally, my views are more compatible with personal freedoms than the average idiotic Republican.
We really need more of this flag on a rainbow background.
Agreed. The collective can only be so long as each individual contained within it is equally free. Inequalities of individual liberty within the collective begets a fundamentally oppressive structure.
The Gadsden flag is not opposed to the freedom of the collective; liberty for the individual does not necessitate an oppressive structure, but, instead, the collective can only be free if each individual is equally free.
its so strange how obsessed americans are with flags
Symbols, Americans are obsessed with symbols and what they represent.
But those symbols are usually empty. Why do you think countries with more heritage don’t fervently defend their symbols so much?
In the United States, branding is everything.
Basically.
Let me guess: it’s left up to states and most if not all of them forbid it
No, it’s federally protected political speech under the First Amendment; states can’t make it illegal.
Based on what I’m reading everywhere and the comparison of how much GDP each country makes, it’s because they are too poor to spend money on defense spending to protect themselves.
I think you’re on the wrong thread, cause what you said makes no sense
I noticed this in my travels through the Southwestern US. I’ve never seen so many flags on RVs, offroad vehicles, trailers, homes, trucks, etc.
The Trump ones must have been a big uptick in new business. I suspect it’s displaced sports teams which perhaps the flag companies prefer as there are no trademark royalties?
I’ve always thought the Gadsden Flag was for the more Libertarian types, the types that aren’t fundamentalists pushing anti-LGBTQ+ stuff (but also aren’t allies, and are more on the side of letting anti-LGBTQ people deny services and mistreat them as long as the government isn’t doing it), but tend to vote Republican because… I guess because Democrats seem to be more controlling in government (or at least don’t constantly yell about being small government while infringing on freedoms). I live in Alaska, and I see a lot of that here, the fuck off and let me do my own thing, I don’t care what you label yourself as type.
I wouldn’t call them hateful by any stretch. If anything, just apathetic about other people’s health and safety in favor of their own freedoms. Funny enough, I think they’re closest to original Colonists that lived during the revolution, and soon after those governing them saw how untenable that was as a governmental system.
Wasnt it a regimental flag from more than 200 years ago?
Anyone who had any real connection to the meaning of that flag has been dead for more than a century.
Anyone waving that thing around now is either a reenactor, or a poser cosplaying as a tough guy. At this point, much like the Confederate Navy Jack, it has been co-opted to stand for racism and hatred. Either that or J6 was a big Civil war reenactment with terrible planning. “Guys, guys!!! We’re supposed to be in MANASSAS! No! Stop seiging the Capitol!”
The Gadsden flag is primarily used as a symbol of Libertarianism – it encompasses ideas of personal liberty, and individualism. But you are right – the Gadsden flag made its first appearance in the American Revolutionary War.
Anyone waving that thing around now is either a reenactor, or a poser cosplaying as a tough guy.
A “reenactor”? While, yes, the flag was first used in the continental army, nowadyas, it has moved quite far from simply being used as a historical prop.
At this point, much like the Confederate Navy Jack, it has been co-opted to stand for racism and hatred.
In my opinion, most people that say that the Gadsden flag represents “racism and hatred” most likely take all their information on the symbol from the fearmongering media.
and soon after those governing them saw how untenable that was as a governmental system
Would you mind clarifying what you mean?
Weird crossover
Colorado Progressives want to ban all right-wing imagery but Liberals are defending it because it has historic roots in the founding of the nation. I thought it was an interesting political story.
Progressives want to ban all right-wing imagery
Nonsense.
Have all the right wing imagery you want. It’s a free country. Just don’t expect to be free from criticism and don’t get violent.
Have all the right wing imagery you want.
This is solid blue Colorado, where California Progressives have settled. They are used to getting their way, but Colorado is all about individual rights. So the Progressives out here get mad quite often when the government doesn’t back their extreme views and mission to ban right-wing imagery. Keep in mind those in question are not a large group of people and do not reflect Progressives elsewhere in the nation.
I’m from Colorado, we have never been solid blue. Until quite recently we were reliably purple. Outside of our major metro areas we are still pretty red.
You’re talking out your ass.
I’ve lived in Colorado for 34 years, it’s solid fucking blue.
Outside of our major metro areas we are still pretty red
There are only 500,000 that live outside the metro areas, so yes about 500K Republicans and 5 million Democrats.
A solid blue state wouldn’t elect someone like Boebert MULTIPLE FUCKING TIMES you dumb fuck
Colorado springs is the second largest metro area and even that city is pretty red. You don’t know what you are talking about
… in Colorado Springs private schools? I’m guessing you haven’t spent a second in Colorado Springs.
Colorado Springs isn’t the ultra right-wing haven it used to be. It’s purple and will turn blue in the near future.
Uh excuse me, you were just crying in another thread about how the state is totally solid blue but now it’s purple eh?
The decision of a SINGLE PERSON doesn’t mean SHIT. Fuck off weak ass troll
Then why did they want to remove a patch in a boy’s backpack?
Why do you think overzealous school administrators are progressive?
Because they wanted to ban the gadsen flag
That’s not what progressivism is at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism
Progressivism is about organized labor and a willingness to make big policy reforms if they’re evidence-based. Like progressives want universal healthcare instead of the shit sandwich of corporate bureaucracy Americans eat at the hospital. Progressives don’t care about backpack patches in schools. The school policies they care about having a strong teachers union and high quality, universal school lunches.
Oh how out of reality do you have to be to believe actual politicians act like that
Do you think all progressives everywhere wanted to do that? You say a lot of silly things.
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The ones relevant to that boy did
Ok, so what? You’re protesting the idea in another thread that conservatives eventually will want all queer people dead by saying incidents of violence were isolated and here you’re arguing that the actions of a single person can be expanded to all progressives.
Make up your mind.
Where do you find a “dissonance”? If anything it’s you because you’re claiming that few incidents represent around half of th US, while I just said that progressives relevant to the boy wanted to censor him
They were to remove the patches with firearms but there was a clear mixup in relation to adjacent themes like the no step on snek has become.
Not that you’re looking for a real answer or anything, given how you are already aware that the official position is that the no step on snek symbology is expressly allowed yet ask why the patche were removed. I can’t even tell if you read the actual fucking article.
Why are you playing dumb?
Well, I was answering the post, not the article
In recent years, the flag has become the symbol of the American Tea Party political movement and has also been adopted by far-right extremists.
In 2014, a Las Vegas couple who espoused anti-government, pro-gun beliefs killed two police officers at a pizza restaurant and draped over one of their bodies a swastika and a Gadsden flag.
I guess we should ban the American flag too because the 1/6 folk waved it while taking the capitol
The sad part is you think you’re making some profound point, but you’re not.
If I’m not, explain why it’s not as valid as the “capitol guys used no step on snek flags, it must be banned”
Shh, they don’t want to be the bad guys.
No we don’t lol. The DToM flag is fine, altho admittedly right wingers and libertarians fly it without understanding it at all.
The only flags that should be banned are those of enemy powers and traitors that the right wing loves to fly, such as the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag. Those two literally serve no purpose being flown in modern America because 1 was the flag of genocide and the other the flag of traitors and slavery.
libertarians fly it without understanding it at all.
What? The Gadsden flag is, in effect, a symbol of Libertarianism.
The only flags that should be banned are those of enemy powers and traitors that the right wing loves to fly, such as the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag. Those two literally serve no purpose being flown in modern America because 1 was the flag of genocide and the other the flag of traitors and slavery.
Ignoring the fact that the 1st Ammendment would prohibit any such legislation from ever being passed, why ban hateful symbols? If the symbols are truly terrible, then the court of public opinion will handle it – the solution to bad speech is better speech.
Banning the flags of enemy powers? Wouldn’t that include the USSR?
Yea that would, and I’d be fine with that.
I’m not a ussr simp.
Based
The story is about Progressives banning Right-Wing imagery they believe promotes gun violence.
What evidence do you have that they are progressive beyond the fact that you don’t like them?
Read the article.
I’m pretty sure you didn’t, not intelligently anyway
Except “progressive” doesn’t appear anywhere in the article…
Maybe you should read the article you’re telling others to read before you say that… maybe this part of the article kinda would explain why the Gadsden flag has a bad rap today
In recent years, the flag has become the symbol of the American Tea Party political movement and has also been adopted by far-right extremists.
In 2014, a Las Vegas couple who espoused anti-government, pro-gun beliefs killed two police officers at a pizza restaurant and draped over one of their bodies a swastika and a Gadsden flag.
You keep saying “progressive” like overzealous school administrators are progressive. How do you know their politics? Maybe they’re undecided voters who are sick of this one kid’s shit.
I watched the video with the kid, his mom, and the administrator. I’ll totally defend the boys right to wear the patch, but he really looked like an annoying little twat.
However, even more annoying was the incompetent admin from that video.
Liberals are defending it because it has historic roots in the founding of the nation
The Gadsden Flag is a much more powerful symbol than simply a historic prop. It encompasses ideas of personal liberty, and individualism. It is essentially a symbol of Libertarianism.
